An Optimistic Monday Post-Holiday Wrap-Up
Right now the MCPS health classes under contention are being developed by school district staff. Sounds like they've got some good people working on it, we're not worried about what they'll produce. The world being what it is, I imagine the new curricula will undergo an extra layer of review by the legal team. We hope that the school board has the fortitude to trust their experts without making any political adjustments to the course content.
The new citizens advisory committee will meet for the first time in a couple of weeks. I'm on that committee, and will try to walk a fine line blogging about the process while participating in it. The goal is to help the committee come to a consensus on a good curriculum, and blogging of course is secondary to that. That doesn't mean I can't talk about it, it just means that I may not say every little thought that comes into my head. If you know what I mean.
The Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum, it seems to me, are running out of steam. They made a mistake last week by holding a meeting and having their featured speaker undermine the nutty parts of their agenda. The fact is, if you put the research on the table and look at it, there's nothing there to support their extreme opinions. When they invited Warren Throckmorton to speak at their "informational meeting," I think they expected him to support them, but he was very careful not to. Yes, he leans a certain way that favors them, but he was very careful in his wording, and frequently mentioned that you can't go beyond the research, and that if you don't have scientific evidence for something, you shouldn't teach it in school: our view, exactly. We may discuss how to interpret medical and scientific research, and we might not agree on everything, but this is no place to float off into theological judgments and speculations.
It appears to me that the CRC seems to be fracturing into the True Believers, who want to press forward their self-righteous ideological agenda no matter what, and those who are simply conservative. You can't talk to the True Believers, that's not what they do. They live in an all or nothing world, and to tell you the truth, they had their chance and blew it.
Other members of the group seem to be people who have conservative views. These are simply parents who are concerned about raising their kids too fast and exposing them to too much at too young an age. Some may want to protect their children from worldly influences or demeaning popular culture, and some are just a little modest about talking about sex.
And you know, the members of our group feel that way, too, we worry about what our kids are picking up. I wouldn't let my kid watch certain TV shows until he got big enough to take the remote control away from me by force, I just thought it was a bad influence. We all have some boundaries, and as the school district develops a curriculum and the citizens committee evaluates it, we should be grown-up enough to shift those boundaries back and forth. Some of us will insist on getting all the facts, and on being fair and respectful to the sexual minorities in our society. Others will insist on emphasizing the risks of sexual behaviors and on making sure teenagers aren't given the idea that casual sex is just fine if you wear a condom. Cool, let's talk about it and figure out how to do all that, or get as close as we can. We all want the same thing, we just emphasize different parts of it.
The history of this is that the CRC began as an attempt to recall the entire school board over the new curriculum that was adopted last November. After the 2004 elections, they thought they had a mandate. But over the months we -- and others in the community -- have consistently and firmly pointed out the ugliness of their message, the lies, the inconsistencies. In desperation they pulled off a last-minute legal maneuver that had the result of causing the school district to start over again. It was a cheap shot, they baffled the judge about what was in the curriculum and what was in some teachers' background resources, won a 10-day temporary restraining order, and then negotiated a deal with the school district to prevent further lawsuits. It was a very weak outcome to a long and contentious controversy. They got what they wanted, that is, the blocked the curriculum, but in doing it they lost what community support they might have had, and demonstrated that they could not win on the strengths of their arguments, but only by legal chicanery.
I expect the CRC will sue again, they've told the papers they would, and it's all they've got left. They have refused to comply with the school board's rules for applying to the citizens advisory committee, and want to put an ineligible person on it. They have actually said that they shouldn't have to follow the board's rules, only the terms of their legal agreement.
If they want to participate in the process of curriculum development, then they need to be willing to negotiate and compromise. If they want to hold the line on their nuttier ideas, and here I am thinking of the business about "ex-gays," then they will not be seen as participating in the process, but trying to wreck it. That won't surprise anybody, but it will not work for them, either.
Quickly, the "ex-gay" thing, for those who have not followed this discussion. There is a clever strategy by the religious right to claim as a fact that gay people can be converted to heterosexuals through prayer and psychotherapy. They like to call these people "ex-gays," and then pretend that this group of people are being discriminated against. In this case, they say you should "teach both sides," you should teach about gays and "ex-gays."
Well, it is not really clear that anybody has ever really changed their sexual orientation. You only know from self-report, a person is what they say they are, and most of the people who say they are "ex-gays" are religious activists who have a lot to gain by claiming to have changed, both financially and personally. If anybody has changed, there are not very many of them; it is an insignificant phenomenon.
The concept is a tool for evangelizing, for bringing religious ideas into the classroom. You won't find anybody who talks about "ex-gays" as a secular concept, there is no scientific support for the phenomenon. There is no place for this topic in the classrooms of Montgomery County, and I'm sorry, but if they insist on this kind of silliness they will be shot down again and again.
But if they want to actually develop a curriculum for our kids, to negotiate, persuade with reason and evidence, and compromise, I for one welcome that. With recent developments, I think we are coming to this point. The radicals are losing their place, their extreme views have failed to convince anyone. I am hoping that the moderate ones, the conservative ones, the ones who are willing to open a dialogue, will come to the front now, and we can move forward cooperatively.
The new citizens advisory committee will meet for the first time in a couple of weeks. I'm on that committee, and will try to walk a fine line blogging about the process while participating in it. The goal is to help the committee come to a consensus on a good curriculum, and blogging of course is secondary to that. That doesn't mean I can't talk about it, it just means that I may not say every little thought that comes into my head. If you know what I mean.
The Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum, it seems to me, are running out of steam. They made a mistake last week by holding a meeting and having their featured speaker undermine the nutty parts of their agenda. The fact is, if you put the research on the table and look at it, there's nothing there to support their extreme opinions. When they invited Warren Throckmorton to speak at their "informational meeting," I think they expected him to support them, but he was very careful not to. Yes, he leans a certain way that favors them, but he was very careful in his wording, and frequently mentioned that you can't go beyond the research, and that if you don't have scientific evidence for something, you shouldn't teach it in school: our view, exactly. We may discuss how to interpret medical and scientific research, and we might not agree on everything, but this is no place to float off into theological judgments and speculations.
It appears to me that the CRC seems to be fracturing into the True Believers, who want to press forward their self-righteous ideological agenda no matter what, and those who are simply conservative. You can't talk to the True Believers, that's not what they do. They live in an all or nothing world, and to tell you the truth, they had their chance and blew it.
Other members of the group seem to be people who have conservative views. These are simply parents who are concerned about raising their kids too fast and exposing them to too much at too young an age. Some may want to protect their children from worldly influences or demeaning popular culture, and some are just a little modest about talking about sex.
And you know, the members of our group feel that way, too, we worry about what our kids are picking up. I wouldn't let my kid watch certain TV shows until he got big enough to take the remote control away from me by force, I just thought it was a bad influence. We all have some boundaries, and as the school district develops a curriculum and the citizens committee evaluates it, we should be grown-up enough to shift those boundaries back and forth. Some of us will insist on getting all the facts, and on being fair and respectful to the sexual minorities in our society. Others will insist on emphasizing the risks of sexual behaviors and on making sure teenagers aren't given the idea that casual sex is just fine if you wear a condom. Cool, let's talk about it and figure out how to do all that, or get as close as we can. We all want the same thing, we just emphasize different parts of it.
The history of this is that the CRC began as an attempt to recall the entire school board over the new curriculum that was adopted last November. After the 2004 elections, they thought they had a mandate. But over the months we -- and others in the community -- have consistently and firmly pointed out the ugliness of their message, the lies, the inconsistencies. In desperation they pulled off a last-minute legal maneuver that had the result of causing the school district to start over again. It was a cheap shot, they baffled the judge about what was in the curriculum and what was in some teachers' background resources, won a 10-day temporary restraining order, and then negotiated a deal with the school district to prevent further lawsuits. It was a very weak outcome to a long and contentious controversy. They got what they wanted, that is, the blocked the curriculum, but in doing it they lost what community support they might have had, and demonstrated that they could not win on the strengths of their arguments, but only by legal chicanery.
I expect the CRC will sue again, they've told the papers they would, and it's all they've got left. They have refused to comply with the school board's rules for applying to the citizens advisory committee, and want to put an ineligible person on it. They have actually said that they shouldn't have to follow the board's rules, only the terms of their legal agreement.
If they want to participate in the process of curriculum development, then they need to be willing to negotiate and compromise. If they want to hold the line on their nuttier ideas, and here I am thinking of the business about "ex-gays," then they will not be seen as participating in the process, but trying to wreck it. That won't surprise anybody, but it will not work for them, either.
Quickly, the "ex-gay" thing, for those who have not followed this discussion. There is a clever strategy by the religious right to claim as a fact that gay people can be converted to heterosexuals through prayer and psychotherapy. They like to call these people "ex-gays," and then pretend that this group of people are being discriminated against. In this case, they say you should "teach both sides," you should teach about gays and "ex-gays."
Well, it is not really clear that anybody has ever really changed their sexual orientation. You only know from self-report, a person is what they say they are, and most of the people who say they are "ex-gays" are religious activists who have a lot to gain by claiming to have changed, both financially and personally. If anybody has changed, there are not very many of them; it is an insignificant phenomenon.
The concept is a tool for evangelizing, for bringing religious ideas into the classroom. You won't find anybody who talks about "ex-gays" as a secular concept, there is no scientific support for the phenomenon. There is no place for this topic in the classrooms of Montgomery County, and I'm sorry, but if they insist on this kind of silliness they will be shot down again and again.
But if they want to actually develop a curriculum for our kids, to negotiate, persuade with reason and evidence, and compromise, I for one welcome that. With recent developments, I think we are coming to this point. The radicals are losing their place, their extreme views have failed to convince anyone. I am hoping that the moderate ones, the conservative ones, the ones who are willing to open a dialogue, will come to the front now, and we can move forward cooperatively.








198 Comments:
There has still not been produced on this website any evidence that:
1. Homoesxuality is not a disease
2. Homoesxuality is not a choice
3. Homoesxuality cannot be changed
All I ever see is a bunch of name-calling and sweeping claims without any substantiation.
Anon, that's the consensus in the medical and psychological communities at this time. The burden is on your side to show why it should be considered a disease, to show that sexual orientation is a choice (good luck with that one!), and that it can be changed.
C'mon, man, that should be easy, right?
JimK
No, it's not our burden. You're the one claiming that you have a facts base on science. The reference to the associations is simply an underhanded way to try to imply to the students that these things are facts.
Gay rights groups pressured these assocaitions to take positions based on a perceived right. The associations did it because they knew that these things could never be proved one way or another so. Now, after pressuring these associations, they are saying that the positions of the associations represent proof and claiming the associations were compelled to take these positions by science. If so, teach the facts not the opinions.
Could you imagine a physics curriculum that read "The American Association of Cosmologists agree that energy equals mass times the speed of light squared."?
Teach the kids what we know, what different people think and have thought and what has influenced those views not what GLAAD would like them to believe.
Anon, please. Let's be a little realistic. Imagine, at least that the "The American Association of Physicists agree that energy equals mass times the speed of light squared."? You don't think that should affect how physics is taught in school?
There's no reason to call it a disease, as it does not impair a person in any way, other than forcing them to deal with people who are prejudiced against them.
Nobody recalls choosing their sexual orientation. Do you? So why would you argue such a counterintuitive and weird belief?
If homosexuality can be changed, then ... show us. It seems that the only people anybody can come up with are a small number of guys who are going out giving speeches and collecting donations on the basis of their "ex-gay" status. Show me the research that says that any significant proportion of gay people can change their sexual orientation.
JimK
"Anon, please. Let's be a little realistic. Imagine, at least that the "The American Association of Physicists agree that energy equals mass times the speed of light squared."? You don't think that should affect how physics is taught in school?"
Well, no, I don't. I don't think you'd find any other curiculum that would imply something's true based on the opinion of an association. Kids should be taught and shown how facts are arrived at.
"There's no reason to call it a disease, as it does not impair a person in any way, other than forcing them to deal with people who are prejudiced against them.
Nobody recalls choosing their sexual orientation. Do you? So why would you argue such a counterintuitive and weird belief?
If homosexuality can be changed, then ... show us. It seems that the only people anybody can come up with are a small number of guys who are going out giving speeches and collecting donations on the basis of their "ex-gay" status. Show me the research that says that any significant proportion of gay people can change their sexual orientation."
All these are based on your subjective experiences (giving you the benefit of the doubt.) If your opponents base anything on personal experience, you go ballistic, demanding a scientific study. Yet, when anyone asks you to substantiate your claims, you wander off into what you have observed.
Interesting dichotomy. You'd almost think you were coached on this strategy.
Anonymous: I do not need a scientific study that tells me why I am homosexual. I didn't choose to be homosexual, I AM homosexual. Just, as I am guessing, you are heterosexual...and I know you didn't choose your orientation. There are plenty of things about your sexual orientation I could critize, and go to court over, and even propose a Constitutional Amendment to address, and with just cause, but you know what? I simply don't care what your sexual orientation is! I wouldn't care if you were left-handed either. Experience has shown me one thing though: the people who are as obsessed about homosexuality...or in fact just sex...are really the folks we need to worry about. Talk about PFOX...perhaps there ought to be an organization for you, too. PFOOS - Parents and Friends of Obsessed Sexophobics(and maybe one day, hopefully, ex-sexophobics!)
"Not so anonymous Bob"
Bob
You're being as illogical as Jim. You seem to think unless I stop arguing with your inanities, I must be anormally obsessed with the topic. Really doesn't address anything and is common of the attemtped personal attacks that pass for reasoned argumentation here.
The school board and the old CAC and TTF want to trick kids into believing something that is not true. It's not any more complicated than that.
Why don't you go ahead and spell that out for us, then, Anon? What is it that bothers you?
If you need to refresh your memory, the 8th and 10th grade curricula are linked over on the righthand side of this page. Go ahead and copy and paste the parts that you think are untrue, and explain where the error is.
JimK
MCPS board, discredited CAC and propagandistic TTF wants kids to believe that there is a scientific basis for believing:
1. Homoesxuality is not a disease
2. Homoesxuality is not a choice
3. Homoesxuality cannot be changed
I see, so you're not saying these statements aren't true, they just haven't been proven by process of binary-logic that meets your standard.
And do you think anything in science has been "proven" to be true? If so, give an example.
JimK
I'm saying there is no evidence that was considered when these organizations took their positions and there is no evidence being offered to students to substantiate these assertions.
Binary, dewey decimal, eleven-dimension string theory- doesn't matter. Not one shred of evidence is presented to kids but the supposed gravitas of some supposed authoritative association is supposed to fool the kids. It's like in "Miracle on 34th Street" when the lawyer uses the "authority" of the U.S. Post Office to prove that Santa Claus is real.
Scientific basis for sexual orientation? Dream on.
1. Heterosexuality is not a disease.
2. Heterosexuality is not a choice.
3. Heterosexuality cannot be changed.
Do the above three points even need to be taught? It's common knowledge no? (Despite #3 being debatable considering anecdotal evidence.)
Such scrutiny on homosexuality is unjust. Why must it always be the one to be put under the spotlight? Because people don't like it? Since when did that become a good reason?
If it's such common knowledge, why does TTF keep talking about following the science?
[Wow, I just reread my comment and it IS long. but when you read a whole bunch of comments, many thoughts come to mind, so here goes}
This argument about the exact nature of science doesn't really get us anywhere, especially where you are talking about social science which has to rely so much on what people say or observations and conclusions of how they act, so data can be open to interpretation perhaps more so than in other scientific disciplines. Still, it seems to me, as a non-scientist, that when an organization representing a profession of people trained in a certain field makes a policy statement or defines something (like a disease), most people would and should give that group and the statement a high level of credibility. The substance of the statement/policy may yet be proven wrong, but those views usually represent the state of the art at that time. You can argue forever about whether you can prove every scientific view/judgment as a fact or not (because there can be different standards of proof), but surely there are expert opinions based on what is known today that deserve attention. And, when it is necessary to make a decision about your health, or what to teach kids about their physical and mental health, you can do some research (as the former CAC did) and weigh your sources, look at minority views if there are any, and make a choice. As to the minority opinions, which are generally supported by less evidence or in some cases no evidence,it seems to me that for practical purposes, you go with the mainstream view when you are acting on behalf of the community (like the schools). Government entities and schools have to make decisions about resources all the time and they have to base those decisions on something.
As an aside on minority views in science and again as a layperson, I know that the fact that there is a minority view, often is what leads to more study and yes, sometimes it turns out the minority is correct or that both views are wrong!! NIH, for example, is studying various complementary medical approaches and bit by bit information is coming in that shows one thing or another. A friend of mine who is a scientist and was on the advisory committee for the NIH program explained to me that very often studies in any field are driven first by anecdotal evidence, i.e., people saying that something made them feel better, for example, or that some technique worked. Or practitioners begin to notice patterns and begin talking about it at conferences and then that leads to more study. she also explained how studies are done in bits and pieces, i.e., you might look at whether massage is good for one thing; you don't try to do a study all at once to prove it is good for all the things that massage practitioners and recipients say it is. What people say and people observe is a starting point.
It also happens that lots of people don't like the results when a minority view is proven wrong, and remain convinced that something works even if there is no concrete scientific evidence of it. Certainly, those people are free to decline the state of the art treatments and can pursue whatever they think/believe will work. They, of course, take the risk that they are wrong. such people, however, cannot force those treatments on everyone else.
Also, we all know that scientific research is also driven by the cultural values of a particular time and place. For example, if there were virtually no STDs in the population of a given country, the doctors in that country would be less likely to pursue studies on how to prevent the spread of stds. Or, when I was a teenager, cultural values held that teenagers shouldn't have sex in the first place, so there were probably very few studies on what methods of birth control would be most successful among teenage girls.
And, we all know that cultural values sometimes provide answers to "why" questions when no other information is available. Thus, one could argue that lepers were inflicted because of sin, or that people who said they heard voices, must be listening to the devil, unless you were listening to an angel. We know better now, but those views were once "mainstream."
so here's my point: mainstream medical and mental health organizations, which generally do representative their membership, think that same sex attractions are not a disease. We don't have to know exactly what causes same sex attractions to rule out this one view. We also know that there considerable anecdotal evidence that most gays state that they knew they were different from very early on and that they don't think or believe they could (or should) change their orientation. So I think the revised curriculum was on sound ground when it stated that mainstream mental and medical groups do not think homosexuality is a disease. The minority view is at this time a "very" minority view, so stating more than the mainstream view would be likely to confuse the kids and would actually lead to much more discussion and time on the topic than it appears the curriculum writers wanted.
No one denies that one can choose sexual behaviors; thus, a gay person could choose to be celibate or could choose to have only sex with the opposite sex if they had a reason (like religion) to do so. After all, no one ever said that you can't have sex and make babies even if you don't particularly like the sex: we all know there were long periods in our history when many hetereosexual couples had lousy sexual experiences and the women didn't enjoy it all that much; nevertheless, they did their duty. However, we also now that in the 21st century most people expect to have a satisfying sex life and western culture tends to approve of that. So there has been a change in our western cultural values about sex. The real question is whether people with same sex attractions should be forced back in the closet and to have sexual relationships with people they are generally not attracted to because of a set of values that are out of the mainstream.
The people who believe that same sex attraction is a sin, apparently DO believe that it would be okay to make it so uncomfortable for gays that they would choose celibacy or enter into traditional hetereosexual relationships, whether they like it or not! But they can't say that because they know that our cultural values HAVE changed and most people wouldn't agree with them. That is, of course, what they are really disturbed about: the changes in cultural values (or traditional values, as they like to say). So instead they keep arguing about whether homosexuality is a disease or not and they desparately want to be able to teach children in our public schools that it is a disease, like having cavities in your teeth, so they can teach how to fix it.
But where would that get us. There are lots of "diseases" that people have, mental or physical, and we don't unnecessarily draw attention to them in our classrooms and if we do mention them, as a matter, for example of hygiene, we don't explain every controversial treatment out there. Moreover, we don't teach our kids that people who have certain diseases must be forced into treatment, especially a kind that is out of the mainstream. We don't force people to get treatment they don't want. (unless they are a danger to themselves or others. I'm not sure whether in a public health crisis, people can be forced to take treatments or whether they would just be quarantined. ).
So why does Anon and others want to single out homosexuality as one of the major diseases they want the schools to teach about. It is because they think it is a sin and/or they are homophobes (whether they know it or not). Well no one in teachthefacts wants to infringe on anyone's right to believe what one wants or to teach their children what they want in the privacy of your home and in your church/synagogue/mosque, temple, etc. ALL the currculum wanted to say was that homosexuality is not a disease. The curriculum didn't say anymore than that, i.e., whether it is moral or sinful, where it comes from, etc.
If Anon has a kid who thinks he or she may have same sex attractions, his/her family will have to work it out however they see fit. I'm not comfortable with parents of teenagers forcing them into a bootcamp in order to "change" sexual orientation, which some experts believe may be harmful to the child's mental health, but if that is not viewed as illegal, then I guess I have to live with that though I may speak out against it. The point is that the school system shouldn't be the one to tell the kid or his/her classmates that although homosexuality isn't a disease, it is sinful and not a good thing. It is the school's responsibility, if it undertakes to teach topics related to health and sex, to state that promiscuity is dangerous to everyone who engages in it whether you are gay or heterosexual.
Re the last comment Oops. I meant to say on that last comment that it was from AmyH, not anonymous, but I can't figure out how to post on this thing with a name.
Binary, dewey decimal, eleven-dimension string theory- doesn't matter...
Anon, it's not such a fancy concept. Binary logic reasons with statements that are either true or false. That sounds reasonable, doesn't it?
Let me ask you some easy questions, and you answer Yes or No, the statement is True or False. Are swans white? Do birds sing? Are girls pretty? Does alcohol make you happy?
Come on, man, Yes or No.
You see how un-useful this kind of reasoning is, when you're talking about real things.
Science cannot deal in binary concepts. Every truth has degree and conditions and exceptions. Truth is statistical, it is not Boolean.
One reason we trust the experts and not you, Anon, is that they have spent years considering the nature of true propositions and the validity of inferences. A scientist's training is not just in his subject area, but in the methods of science particularly, including hypothesis formation, valid measurement, research design, analysis of data, and inference from the data. They aren't just some guys with an opinion, they have been educated in the fine traditions of natural philosophy. And you haven't.
JimK
Anon,
I've said it before, and I'll repeat it. I'm not an expert on sexual orientation, but on sexual (gender) identity. There was no scientific research on transsexualism beyond the work with the intersexed in Germany in the 1920s until the 70s, and nothing truly scientific until the 90's. Calling transsexualism a mental illness was a choice made by professionals BASED ON NO EVIDENCE. There isn't even any mention of the phenomenon in the Bible of any peoples. Now we have professionals who study evidence and have changed their position. Sounds like good science and public policy to me. If new evidence arises we will have to process that, too.
Sometimes the scientic process is slow and cumbersome, but at least there's an accepted process. Not so with religion.
The same situation holds, roughly, with sexual orientation. The concept was also defined by the Germans, integrated into medicine by the Germans in a positive sense, then pathologized by the Nazis and spread to England and the US. But the important point is that there has never been any scientific evidence that being homosexual is a mental illness, and your saying it doesn't make it so. There is more than enough scientific evidence to show it is a biological phenomenon, and none to show it is not. Even Warren Throckmorton, and some of the conversion therapists, agree that it cannot be changed. Only behavior can be changed.
Those Christian-based ministries don't really think it's a disease, because they are not qualified to discuss the issue. They think it is a sin. Fine. They are entitled to that. But they understand that in a secular society you cannot promulgate laws based on theology, Antonin Scalia aside, so they try to prove that it's a disease. They haven't, and they can't.
I presented a paper this summer to an eminent group of scientists in the field of human sexuality on the effects of the endocrine disruptor, DES, on human gender identity. I was well received, though fiercely challenged, as it should be. Now, there is a wealth of evidence in mice, rats, guinea pigs, Japanese quail, etc. that DES cause gender variance. I collected data that it has as well in humans. The only argument I got, and it's a good one from a scientific perspective, is that I did not prove that the subjects had been exposed to DES. I couldn't, since the records have disappeared; it's been a very long time in most cases. So I can accept that, until we have developed a molecular marker that is characteristic of in utero DES exposure, I will not be able to scientifically "prove" my case. But I have presented sufficient evidence for a very strong case. A legal analogy would be "clear and convincing" but not "beyond a reasonable doubt." And that's only for humans; in animals it is "beyond a reasonable doubt."
So please explain to me why I should have to sit quietly when Ben Patton and Steina Walter and Co. rant to the BoE that I'm mentally ill, or the CRC throws a fit about the mention of trans people to high school students?
"Binary, dewey decimal, eleven-dimension string theory- doesn't matter...
Anon, it's not such a fancy concept. Binary logic reasons with statements that are either true or false. That sounds reasonable, doesn't it?
Let me ask you some easy questions, and you answer Yes or No, the statement is True or False. Are swans white? Do birds sing? Are girls pretty? Does alcohol make you happy?
Come on, man, Yes or No.
You see how un-useful this kind of reasoning is, when you're talking about real things.
Science cannot deal in binary concepts. Every truth has degree and conditions and exceptions. Truth is statistical, it is not Boolean."
This is an interesting diversion, Jim, but not appropos to the discussion unless you want to expand a little. I can see why you need diversion, though.
"One reason we trust the experts and not you, Anon, is that they have spent years considering the nature of true propositions and the validity of inferences. A scientist's training is not just in his subject area, but in the methods of science particularly, including hypothesis formation, valid measurement, research design, analysis of data, and inference from the data. They aren't just some guys with an opinion, they have been educated in the fine traditions of natural philosophy. And you haven't."
I'm not asking anyone to trust me. I'm asking someone to provide some support for the ideas ascribed to professional associations in the old curriculum. If the AMA's position is the result of the evidence presented by Wertsch at your forum, it sounds like the fine traditions of natural philosophy have failed.
Of course, that assumes all professionals agree. I remember when some of those studies Wertsch cites came out. There was wide disagreement about their meaning among researchers. Haven't heard that any of it's been resolved.
Their opinion is valid in their field of expertise. None of this is based on that. What is normal and whether we have a choice about what we feel is the domain of philosophy and religion not science.
By the way, I haven't read the lengthy comments of Dana and Amy H but will try to get to them later today.
Anon,
So, you acknowledge it's not really about the science, but it's natural phiosophy and religion. Thank you. We can now put the scientific arguments to rest, and, as many of us have pointed out, it is simply your religious beliefs that power your resistance. It's quite clear that even when science presents an incontrovertible case about sexual orientation, you will not accept it. I have presented a very powerful case on sexual identity, and you've done nothing to contradict that, either. Maybe you haven't attacked trans persons out of respect for me, or because you accept my case, or because your Bible says nothing about it, so you're free to go with the science. Whatever, I do appreciate it.
But we can now be clear, that since your personal religion condemns homosexuality, you do as well, and that's all there is to it.
And, as I've pointed out, the main difference between science and religion is that science is open to new data and new hypotheses, and scientists, for the most part, are willing to change their views. Fundamentalists simply are not. That sums up the main reason science has been on the rise and Christian fundamentalism on the decline for the past five hundred years.
So gay groups pressured the AMA and the APA and other major groups into saying homosexuality is not a disease and not a mental disorder and can't be changed- even got a surgeon general to agree. Yeah, sure. This is just like the sound judgements I hear about Jews on the Yahoo news boards- we are all powerful and we can make everyone do everything(and with us only being 1/6 of 1% of the world population- wow-how come I still have to work at a desk job everyday- why aren't I running a multinational corporation). I believe one of the outstanding experts of gay bigotry- Robert Knight- claims that gay people are only 2 or 3 % of the population. But they are such a powerful small group that they can undermine the major medical, psychiatric and psychological associations. Amazing
So kettle to pot - who is making sweeping claims without any substantiation?
Dana,
Still didn't read your post from yesterday but this one is more my speed. Being a non-scientist, my attention span doesn't go past three paragraphs. Here goes:
"So, you acknowledge it's not really about the science, but it's natural phiosophy and religion. Thank you. We can now put the scientific arguments to rest,"
That's what I've been saying from the beginning. I don't know how many times this needs to be reiterated: I don't want the schools to teach my personal views. Normality and choice are in the realm of metaphysics- if you teach it to kids, you need to expose them to all widely hel views. My point is that the whole thing doesn't have a scientific basis. You people have been claiming it does and trying to get the schools to promote your view.
"and, as many of us have pointed out, it is simply your religious beliefs that power your resistance. It's quite clear that even when science presents an incontrovertible case about sexual orientation, you will not accept it."
That's not true.
"But we can now be clear, that since your personal religion condemns homosexuality, you do as well, and that's all there is to it."
I don't think that I've ever been foggy on that. Still, there are others in society that feel it's wrong, because of general societal effects, and most other religions hold the same position.
"And, as I've pointed out, the main difference between science and religion is that science is open to new data and new hypotheses, and scientists, for the most part, are willing to change their views. Fundamentalists simply are not."
I can't speak for fundamentalists because, as I've stated, I'm an evangelical. I have informed the readers here though that a distinctive of Christianity is that it has a specific doctrine called "general relativity" which states that God reveals himself through nature and, thus, Christianity will always reconcile itself to new discoveries- it is obligated to do so.
On the specific topics, saying homosexuality is not a disease doesn't violate any principle of my religion. We believe it's a sin. We don't believe murder or bank robbery are diseases either.
Saying homosexuality is not a choice doesn't violate any principle of my religion. As a matter of fact, there are Bible passages that would lead one to conclude that homosexuality is not a choice.
My problem is that certain people make claims that science has found some discoveries to enlighten these questions and it hasn't. They want to change the perceptions of kids by making false connections.
"That sums up the main reason science has been on the rise and Christian fundamentalism on the decline for the past five hundred years."
Actually, fundamentalism of every kind is and has been a major force for the last 500 years. The only real bastion of secularism is Western Europe and they're widely viewed as in decline as a cvilization.
"So gay groups pressured the AMA and the APA and other major groups into saying homosexuality is not a disease and not a mental disorder and can't be changed- even got a surgeon general to agree."
I didn't hear about the surgeon general. Which one said it and what did he say?
"Yeah, sure. This is just like the sound judgements I hear about Jews on the Yahoo news boards- we are all powerful and we can make everyone do everything(and with us only being 1/6 of 1% of the world population-"
Bringing up those Nazis again- just like your buddy, Jim. And just think, it wouldn't come up in a search either.
"wow-how come I still have to work at a desk job everyday- why aren't I running a multinational corporation)."
I think it might be your personality. Why can't you be nice like Dana and Silly?
"I believe one of the outstanding experts of gay bigotry- Robert Knight- claims that gay people are only 2 or 3 % of the population. But they are such a powerful small group that they can undermine the major medical, psychiatric and psychological associations. Amazing"
It is amazing, isn't it? I mean how did they get the APA to take an official position that the majority of its membership didn't agree with?
"So kettle to pot - who is making sweeping claims without any substantiation?"
I provided the only substantiation that has come from either side so you must be addressing another pot.
Amy H,
A new reasonable voice to go with Dana and Silly.
"This argument about the exact nature of science doesn't really get us anywhere, especially where you are talking about social science which has to rely so much on what people say or observations and conclusions of how they act, so data can be open to interpretation perhaps more so than in other scientific disciplines."
Absolutely right. I've tried to make that point many times here.
"Still, it seems to me, as a non-scientist, that when an organization representing a profession of people trained in a certain field makes a policy statement or defines something (like a disease), most people would and should give that group and the statement a high level of credibility."
Yes, and that's why you would choose to consider their view. Unfortunately, these organizations haven't provided any rationale for their decision so you can't get past "consider" with any integrity.
"The substance of the statement/policy may yet be proven wrong, but those views usually represent the state of the art at that time. You can argue forever about whether you can prove every scientific view/judgment as a fact or not (because there can be different standards of proof), but surely there are expert opinions based on what is known today that deserve attention. And, when it is necessary to make a decision about your health, or what to teach kids about their physical and mental health, you can do some research (as the former CAC did) and weigh your sources, look at minority views if there are any, and make a choice."
Research would be trying to see how the associations arrived at their view. Again, we don't teach about the Big Bang because the Society of Rocket Scientists has ruled it correct. We teach what has been proven. By the way, some scientists were sceptical about the Big Bang theory at first because they thought it would tend to support deism. That's biased- and they may have run an association.
"As to the minority opinions, which are generally supported by less evidence or in some cases no evidence,it seems to me that for practical purposes, you go with the mainstream view when you are acting on behalf of the community (like the schools)."
Is there any data on what the mainstream view is? It's curious that polls of scientists don't seem to exist.
"Government entities and schools have to make decisions about resources all the time and they have to base those decisions on something."
How about the truth? Something like this:
Some people say they are sexually attracted to people of the same gender. Researchers have not been able to find any biological basis for this attraction and it is unknown what causes it.
Although those who engage in homosexual behavior have higher rates of suicide, drug abuse, alcoholism, random promiscuity and sexually transmitted disease than the general population, many have managed to function in society in many ways. People who report this attraction are also more likely to have been sexually abused as adolescents and studies have shown that those who sexually abuse children often have been abused as children.
"As an aside on minority views in science and again as a layperson, I know that the fact that there is a minority view, often is what leads to more study and yes, sometimes it turns out the minority is correct or that both views are wrong!! NIH, for example, is studying various complementary medical approaches and bit by bit information is coming in that shows one thing or another. A friend of mine who is a scientist and was on the advisory committee for the NIH program explained to me that very often studies in any field are driven first by anecdotal evidence, i.e., people saying that something made them feel better, for example, or that some technique worked. Or practitioners begin to notice patterns and begin talking about it at conferences and then that leads to more study. she also explained how studies are done in bits and pieces, i.e., you might look at whether massage is good for one thing; you don't try to do a study all at once to prove it is good for all the things that massage practitioners and recipients say it is. What people say and people observe is a starting point."
A very good point. You start looking somewhere for some reason. You may decide to study whether homosexuality is a mental problem because it seem irrational and people engaged in it seem to have a lot of problems.
"It also happens that lots of people don't like the results when a minority view is proven wrong, and remain convinced that something works even if there is no concrete scientific evidence of it. Certainly, those people are free to decline the state of the art treatments and can pursue whatever they think/believe will work. They, of course, take the risk that they are wrong. such people, however, cannot force those treatments on everyone else."
That's true. Like people who say reparative therapy should be illegal. They shouldn't be able to take away a person's right to try to change. Yet they've tried to do it but declaring it unethical.
"Also, we all know that scientific research is also driven by the cultural values of a particular time and place."
Yes, remember, APA's dubious decision took place during the hey day of the sexual revolution. We've been through a lot since.
"For example, if there were virtually no STDs in the population of a given country, the doctors in that country would be less likely to pursue studies on how to prevent the spread of stds. Or, when I was a teenager, cultural values held that teenagers shouldn't have sex in the first place, so there were probably very few studies on what methods of birth control would be most successful among teenage girls.
And, we all know that cultural values sometimes provide answers to "why" questions when no other information is available. Thus, one could argue that lepers were inflicted because of sin, or that people who said they heard voices, must be listening to the devil, unless you were listening to an angel. We know better now, but those views were once "mainstream."
so here's my point: mainstream medical and mental health organizations, which generally do representative their membership, think that same sex attractions are not a disease. We don't have to know exactly what causes same sex attractions to rule out this one view. We also know that there considerable anecdotal evidence that most gays state that they knew they were different from very early on and that they don't think or believe they could (or should) change their orientation."
I could share some anecdotes that I've heard of the opposite but the frequenters here would howl about lack of scientific studies. It's the dichotomy I mentioned yesterday. It's hypocritical.
"So I think the revised curriculum was on sound ground when it stated that mainstream mental and medical groups do not think homosexuality is a disease. The minority view is at this time a "very" minority view, so stating more than the mainstream view would be likely to confuse the kids and would actually lead to much more discussion and time on the topic than it appears the curriculum writers wanted."
Don't need to teach either view. As I said above, the truth will suffice. The kids can get the moral interpretations outside the public schools.
"No one denies that one can choose sexual behaviors; thus, a gay person could choose to be celibate or could choose to have only sex with the opposite sex if they had a reason (like religion) to do so. After all, no one ever said that you can't have sex and make babies even if you don't particularly like the sex: we all know there were long periods in our history when many hetereosexual couples had lousy sexual experiences and the women didn't enjoy it all that much; nevertheless, they did their duty. However, we also now that in the 21st century most people expect to have a satisfying sex life and western culture tends to approve of that. So there has been a change in our western cultural values about sex. The real question is whether people with same sex attractions should be forced back in the closet and to have sexual relationships with people they are generally not attracted to because of a set of values that are out of the mainstream."
You know it's possible that a fleeting attraction can develop into something deeper given the right circumstances. The public schools saying it's cool might be a factor.
"The people who believe that same sex attraction is a sin, apparently DO believe that it would be okay to make it so uncomfortable for gays that they would choose celibacy or enter into traditional hetereosexual relationships, whether they like it or not! But they can't say that because they know that our cultural values HAVE changed and most people wouldn't agree with them."
I'm not sure that's so. You may have a provincial view.
"That is, of course, what they are really disturbed about: the changes in cultural values (or traditional values, as they like to say). So instead they keep arguing about whether homosexuality is a disease or not and they desparately want to be able to teach children in our public schools that it is a disease, like having cavities in your teeth, so they can teach how to fix it."
Most of them would prefer this type of education remained outside the public school so this implication that they're trying to get public schools to teach their views is wrong.
"But where would that get us. There are lots of "diseases" that people have, mental or physical, and we don't unnecessarily draw attention to them in our classrooms and if we do mention them, as a matter, for example of hygiene, we don't explain every controversial treatment out there. Moreover, we don't teach our kids that people who have certain diseases must be forced into treatment, especially a kind that is out of the mainstream. We don't force people to get treatment they don't want. (unless they are a danger to themselves or others."
Who's suggesting that?
"I'm not sure whether in a public health crisis, people can be forced to take treatments or whether they would just be quarantined. )."
Only if they present an imminent public danger.
"So why does Anon and others want to single out homosexuality as one of the major diseases they want the schools to teach about."
For the gadzillionth time, I don't.
"It is because they think it is a sin and/or they are homophobes (whether they know it or not). Well no one in teachthefacts wants to infringe on anyone's right to believe what one wants or to teach their children what they want in the privacy of your home and in your church/synagogue/mosque, temple, etc."
No, they want to contradict it and tell kids that science has proved the contrary.
"ALL the currculum wanted to say was that homosexuality is not a disease. The curriculum didn't say anymore than that, i.e., whether it is moral or sinful, where it comes from, etc."
Some people think it is and there is no way of proving which view is correct.
"If Anon has a kid who thinks he or she may have same sex attractions, his/her family will have to work it out however they see fit. I'm not comfortable with parents of teenagers forcing them into a bootcamp in order to "change" sexual orientation, which some experts believe may be harmful to the child's mental health, but if that is not viewed as illegal, then I guess I have to live with that though I may speak out against it. The point is that the school system shouldn't be the one to tell the kid or his/her classmates that although homosexuality isn't a disease, it is sinful and not a good thing."
No one has suggested that the schools teach about sin. This constant assertion is either a serious misunderstanding or a lie.
"It is the school's responsibility, if it undertakes to teach topics related to health and sex, to state that promiscuity is dangerous to everyone who engages in it whether you are gay or heterosexual."
Why don't you just leave out the "gay or heterosexual"?
Anonymous said
I provided the only substantiation that has come from either side so you must be addressing another pot.
**************
Nah...Andrea got the right pot when speaking to you..a potful of bigotry coming from your pot full biased views.
"anon free"
Free,
You sure you and Andrea aren't the same person?
Anonymous said...
Free,
You sure you and Andrea aren't the same person?
Nah..just your conscience speaking.
"anon free"
anonymous said:
Although those who engage in homosexual behavior have higher rates of suicide, drug abuse, alcoholism, random promiscuity and sexually transmitted disease than the general population, many have managed to function in society in many ways. People who report this attraction are also more likely to have been sexually abused as adolescents and studies have shown that those who sexually abuse children often have been abused as children.
*************
Anonymous are you sure about the above as you wrote it? Provide your sources.
"anon free"
The American Association of Pediatrics
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
The American Association of Pediatrics
__________
Specific quotes from such.... Provide them....
Is that your only source?
"anon free"
go on their website- it was under a section advising doctors how to deal with the issue
Anonymous are you now saying homosexuals are more likely to abuse children..since you are implying that for them to become homosexuals they themselves were abused, etc...and will now become sexual abusers of children?
Of course you are also implying to be a homosexual you had to have been abused and not just wired that way from beginning.
Come on anonymous clarify your source quotes, etc. if you can.
"anon free"
"Anonymous are you now saying homosexuals are more likely to abuse children..since you are implying that for them to become homosexuals they themselves were abused, etc...and will now become sexual abusers of children?
Of course you are also implying to be a homosexual you had to have been abused and not just wired that way from beginning.
Come on anonymous clarify your source quotes, etc. if you can."
The pediatric association has all those things stated except that child abusers are often victims of child abuse. This is commonly reported in the mainstream media- have they been reporting falsely?
I did put those two together but everything else:
"those who engage in homosexual behavior have higher rates of suicide, drug abuse, alcoholism, random promiscuity and sexually transmitted disease than the general population"
and
"People who report this attraction are also more likely to have been sexually abused as adolescents"
come from the Association (or is it, Academy?) of Pediatrics.
Try to find it for you tonight if you are denying it exists.
First, Andrea only posts as herself- I do not use other tags(I am Andrear since there was another andrea). I don't care to hide what I say even if you do.
Second, gee, I am so hurt that I am not as nice as other people here- boo, hoo. I will be going to Dale Carnegie right now.
Third, I never said anything about Nazis- you lied again. I do not assume nor did I say that the people who post anti-semitic crap on Yahoo news boards are Nazis. So don't you dare say I did.
David Satcher in a Call to Action- July ,2001 (go to the Surgeon General's website and look at Calls to Action- there is one on sexual health- July, 2001)says that there is no proof homosexuality is a choice and that sexual identity is established by adolescence if not sooner.
And don't expect me to know which anon is which- use a name if you care.
"First, Andrea only posts as herself- I do not use other tags(I am Andrear since there was another andrea). I don't care to hide what I say even if you do.
Second, gee, I am so hurt that I am not as nice as other people here- boo, hoo. I will be going to Dale Carnegie right now."
My apologies- I thought you were Andrea. Don't blame you for wanting to avoid that association.
"Third, I never said anything about Nazis- you lied again. I do not assume nor did I say that the people who post anti-semitic crap on Yahoo news boards are Nazis. So don't you dare say I did."
Give me a break.
"David Satcher in a Call to Action- July ,2001 (go to the Surgeon General's website and look at Calls to Action- there is one on sexual health- July, 2001)says that there is no proof homosexuality is a choice and that sexual identity is established by adolescence if not sooner."
Thanks. I'll check it out. I met Satcher once. He came to my church to speak in a series we have in the summer called "Faith in the Workplace."
By the way, is there any proof that whether you like fruitcake or not is a choice? Is lack of choice some default position that bears the burden of refutation?
"And don't expect me to know which anon is which- use a name if you care."
I won't lose any sleep over it.
anonymous said "Try to find it for you tonight if you are denying it exists."
You said it...you provide your own sources like everyone else does.
"anon free"
Anonymous said..."child abusers are often victims of child abuse. This is commonly reported in the mainstream media- have they been reporting falsely?"
Now anonymous what does that have to do with homosexuals? You implied that homosexuals were abused to become homosexuals therefore they will be abusers of children.
Are you now backing off that?
"anon free"
Anon,
This is from the American Academy of Pediatrics, the AAP, THE respected and reputable organization that represents America's pediatricians. Not the Association of Pediatrics, which is run by Christian fundamentalists to confuse the issue, as usual, since they have no data. The date is 2004:
ETIOLOGY AND PREVALENCE
Homosexuality has existed in most societies for as long as recorded descriptions of sexual beliefs and practices have been available.4 Societal attitudes toward homosexuality have had a decisive effect on the extent to which individuals have hidden or made known their sexual orientation.
Human sexual orientation most likely exists as a continuum from solely heterosexual to solely homosexual. In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association reclassified homosexuality as a sexual orientation or expression and not a mental disorder.12 The mechanisms for the development of a particular sexual orientation remain unclear, but the current literature and most scholars in the field state that one’s sexual orientation is not a choice; that is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual or heterosexual.8,11
A variety of theories about the influences on sexual orientation have been proposed.5 Sexual orientation probably is not determined by any one factor but by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences.2 In recent decades, biologically based theories have been favored by experts. The high concordance of homosexuality among monozygotic twins and the clustering of homosexuality in family pedigrees support biological models. There is some evidence that prenatal androgen exposure influences development of sexual orientation, but postnatal sex steroid concentrations do not vary with sexual orientation. The reported association in males between homosexual orientation and loci on the X chromosome remains to be replicated. Some research has shown neuroanatomic differences between homosexual and heterosexual persons in sexually dimorphic regions of the brain.5 Although there continues to be controversy and uncertainty as to the genesis of the variety of human sexual orientations, there is no scientific evidence that abnormal parenting, sexual abuse, or other adverse life events influence sexual orientation.4,5 Current knowledge suggests that sexual orientation is usually established during early childhood.1,2,4,5
---------------
That you would imply that gays are more likely to abuse because they have been abused is not only counter-factual, but hateful. I think it's safe to say, though I haven't done the study, that straight men are responsible for the vast majority of abuse and genocide that is human society. And what would be my point, exactly, in saying that?
You keep acting as if one can have a sex-ed class and not talk about partners. Why? Because the default mode is heterosexual, which suits you just fine. But if a student had the gall to ask about homosexual sex, the teacher is not permitted to answer. If you're not preoccupied with the issue, why not let the teacher answer? Why not let the teacher teach one lesson about sexual orientation?
Well, you answered that one, too, because you believe that a little experimentation can lead to a life-long proclivity. Again, a belief for which there is absolutely zero evidence. So to play it safe, for your side, you want to condemn an entire class of people.
Again, the science is there, and growing every day. You have nothing.
We cannot discuss religious beliefs, sin and all that, in the schools. Something your side went to court about, and an issue I agree is better left out of things. So if there is no basis to discuss sin, there is no basis to NOT discuss homosexuality.
As I write this, I glance over at your first comment (I assume that was you, you continue to make this so difficult by refusing to "come out"), and I see that no evidence produced can sway you. All those issues have been dealt with by our side, and even your man, Throckmorton, agrees with us.
As for the other issues to which you responded (I don't want you to think I'm ducking anything):
>>"So, you acknowledge it's not really about the science, but it's natural phiosophy and religion. Thank you. We can now put the scientific arguments to rest,"
That's what I've been saying from the beginning. I don't know how many times this needs to be reiterated: I don't want the schools to teach my personal views. Normality and choice are in the realm of metaphysics- if you teach it to kids, you need to expose them to all widely hel views. My point is that the whole thing doesn't have a scientific basis. You people have been claiming it does and trying to get the schools to promote your view.<<
You are a true master of distortion. I said that schools are obligated to teach the science, and you said it's not really about the science, but about religion. For YOU it's about religion, for me and the vast majority of county residents it's about the science.
>>"and, as many of us have pointed out, it is simply your religious beliefs that power your resistance. It's quite clear that even when science presents an incontrovertible case about sexual orientation, you will not accept it."
That's not true.<<
That's my inference, since you've ignored every bit of scientific data that has been provided. Oh, and since some have provided references, I suggest you read "Evolution's Rainbow," by Joan Roughgarden, a Professor of Biology at Stanford. She presents plenty of data, though she also takes Darwin to task for his theory of sexual selection. Wow, real science, and not towing the party line!
>>"But we can now be clear, that since your personal religion condemns homosexuality, you do as well, and that's all there is to it."
I don't think that I've ever been foggy on that. Still, there are others in society that feel it's wrong, because of general societal effects, and most other religions hold the same position.<<
I understand that, and they are entitled to their beliefs. But they are not entitled to shut down discussion, acting as if even the mention of the dreaded "H" word would infect their children. That's paranoia.
>>"And, as I've pointed out, the main difference between science and religion is that science is open to new data and new hypotheses, and scientists, for the most part, are willing to change their views. Fundamentalists simply are not."
I can't speak for fundamentalists because, as I've stated, I'm an evangelical. I have informed the readers here though that a distinctive of Christianity is that it has a specific doctrine called "general relativity" which states that God reveals himself through nature and, thus, Christianity will always reconcile itself to new discoveries- it is obligated to do so.
On the specific topics, saying homosexuality is not a disease doesn't violate any principle of my religion. We believe it's a sin. We don't believe murder or bank robbery are diseases either.
Saying homosexuality is not a choice doesn't violate any principle of my religion. As a matter of fact, there are Bible passages that would lead one to conclude that homosexuality is not a choice.<<
That's very good of you to point out. I have noted the distinction, though I can't keep track of which Anon is a fundamentalist and which is an evangelical. And I do seem to recall that there are many fundamentalist evangelicals, just by turning on the media on occasion.
>>My problem is that certain people make claims that science has found some discoveries to enlighten these questions and it hasn't. They want to change the perceptions of kids by making false connections.<<
And apparently there is nothing I can say or report or describe that will convince you otherwise, because you have ignored it. I'm no longer amazed that every time I discuss the biology of gneder identity all I get in response is silence.
>>"That sums up the main reason science has been on the rise and Christian fundamentalism on the decline for the past five hundred years."
Actually, fundamentalism of every kind is and has been a major force for the last 500 years. The only real bastion of secularism is Western Europe and they're widely viewed as in decline as a cvilization.<<
Oh, yeah, right. Europe is in decline, so I guess it's a good thing they are undergoing a significant rise in Muslim fundamentalism. Straighten them out.
As for responding to some of your comments to the others, I'll leave that for later.
12:02 PM
I have not had the time to read all the comments closely, but there seem to be two issues being raised by some posters:
1.
Q: Where is it that the major health care professionals say that homosexuality is not an illness and that reparative therapy approaches are dangerous to people's emotional health?
A: Here's what you need to do to find out. Click on the Resources page of this website and then look for a link on the left side of the page that says Fishback 7/27/05 BOE Testimon (with attachments). The attachments are the position papers of the AMA, etc. For your convenience, it begins with an index with page numbers for each document.
2.
Q: Why does the school system need to talk about homosexuality at all?
A: It is very important to do so in the 8th and 10th grade health education courses because if we do not, children who happen to be homosexual will likely think there is something wrong with them and that they are somehow "beyond the pale," since everything else seems to assume that everyone is heterosexual. In essence, all that the proposed revised curriculum was going to present was the simple fact that all major health professional associations have concluded that homosexuality is not a mental disorder, along with a few clarifying statements (fleeting same-sex attraction does not mean you are gay, having gay parents does not predispose a person to being gay, there are families in our community headed up by same-sex couples, most experts believe that homosexuality is not a choice). The deafening silence on this matter was harmful to students -- both gay and straight. We need to provide this basic factual information to so that gay students do not feel marginalized and that straight students understand that the medical community does not regard gays as freaks.
I have not had the time to read all the comments closely, but there seem to be two issues being raised by some posters:
1.
Q: Where is it that the major health care professionals say that homosexuality is not an illness and that reparative therapy approaches are dangerous to people's emotional health?
A: Here's what you need to do to find out. Click on the Resources page of this website and then look for a link on the left side of the page that says Fishback 7/27/05 BOE Testimon (with attachments). The attachments are the position papers of the AMA, etc. For your convenience, it begins with an index with page numbers for each document.
2.
Q: Why does the school system need to talk about homosexuality at all?
A: It is very important to do so in the 8th and 10th grade health education courses because if we do not, children who happen to be homosexual will likely think there is something wrong with them and that they are somehow "beyond the pale," since everything else seems to assume that everyone is heterosexual. In essence, all that the proposed revised curriculum was going to present was the simple fact that all major health professional associations have concluded that homosexuality is not a mental disorder, along with a few clarifying statements (fleeting same-sex attraction does not mean you are gay, having gay parents does not predispose a person to being gay, there are families in our community headed up by same-sex couples, most experts believe that homosexuality is not a choice). The deafening silence on this matter was harmful to students -- both gay and straight. We need to provide this basic factual information to so that gay students do not feel marginalized and that straight students understand that the medical community does not regard gays as freaks.
Dana, thanks for clearing that up. Since I googled the AAP- and saw the heroes of homophobia - like Knight and Narth- blasting them on their statement that gay parents can provide a good home- I couldn't imagine they said that other stuff.
Andrea
Goes to show you that if anonymous says anything..ask for the source.
Seems like anonymous can never come up with that.
"anon free"
Here's a web address for the AAP paper I cited earlier:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/113/6/1827
Here's the pertinent quotes:
"Nonheterosexual youth are more likely to have had sexual intercourse, to have had more partners, and to have experienced sexual intercourse against their will"
"Although only representing a portion of youth who someday will self-identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, school-based studies have found that these adolescents, compared with heterosexual peers, are 2 to 7 times more likely to attempt suicide,... and are more likely to engage in frequent and heavy use of alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine."
From the same article- the parts you left out- "Nonheterosexual youth are at higher risk of dropping out of school, being kicked out of their homes, and turning to life on the streets for survival." "are 2 to 4 times more likely to be threatened with a weapon at school"- and if you read Satcher's report- he says that the suicide and depression are a result of society's treatment of gay people. Kids kicked out of their homes and living on the streets- well, I doubt any kid in that situation makes good choices about drugs or alcohol and is certainly more likely to have unwanted sexual contact- how many kids do we hear about on the streets who turn to prostitution-this is not because they are gay or straight- but because they are kids alone and unwanted. and get victimized.
"1.Q: Where is it that the major health care professionals say that homosexuality is not an illness and that reparative therapy approaches are dangerous to people's emotional health?
2.Q: Why does the school system need to talk about homosexuality at all?"
Uh, David, I don't think anyone here asked those questions but thanks for sharing- twice.
Hey, you're not trying to divert attention, are you?
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/113/6/1827
Human sexual orientation most likely exists as a continuum from solely heterosexual to solely homosexual. In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association reclassified homosexuality as a sexual orientation or expression and not a mental disorder.12 The mechanisms for the development of a particular sexual orientation remain unclear, but the current literature and most scholars in the field state that one’s sexual orientation is not a choice; that is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual or heterosexual.8,11
From anonymous's source.....
"anon free"
Anonymous said:
Nonheterosexual youth are more likely to have had sexual intercourse, to have had more partners, and to have experienced sexual intercourse against their will"
"Although only representing a portion of youth who someday will self-identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, school-based studies have found that these adolescents, compared with heterosexual peers, are 2 to 7 times more likely to attempt suicide,... and are more likely to engage in frequent and heavy use of alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine."
_______________________
(Actual Full Paragraph and not just tiny portion handpicked by anonymous)
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/113/6/1827
Nonheterosexual youth are at higher risk of dropping out of school, being kicked out of their homes, and turning to life on the streets for survival. Some of these youth engage in substance use, and they are more likely than heterosexual peers to start using tobacco, alcohol, and illegal drugs at an earlier age.20 Nonheterosexual youth are more likely to have had sexual intercourse, to have had more partners, and to have experienced sexual intercourse against their will,20 putting them at increased risk of STDs including HIV infection. In a recent study of HIV seroprevalence, 7% of 3492 15- to 22-year-old males who have sex with males living in 7 US cities were HIV-seropositive. Among adolescent males who have sex with males, HIV seroprevalence rates in descending order were highest among black adolescents, then "mixed race or other" adolescents, and then Hispanic adolescents and were lowest among Asian and white adolescents.21 Women having sex with women have the lowest risk of any STD, but lesbian adolescents remain at significant risk because they are likely to have had sexual intercourse with males. Youth in high school who identify themselves as gay, lesbian, or bisexual; engage in sexual activity with persons of the same sex; or report same-sex romantic attractions or relationships are more likely to attempt suicide, be victimized, and abuse substances.20,22 Although only representing a portion of youth who someday will self-identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, school-based studies have found that these adolescents, compared with heterosexual peers, are 2 to 7 times more likely to attempt suicide,16,19,23,24 are 2 to 4 times more likely to be threatened with a weapon at school,16,23 and are more likely to engage in frequent and heavy use of alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine. It is important to note that these psychosocial problems and suicide attempts in nonheterosexual youth are neither universal nor attributable to homosexuality per se, but they are significantly associated with stigmatization of gender nonconformity, stress, violence, lack of support, dropping out of school, family problems, acquaintances’ suicide attempts, homelessness, and substance abuse.2,25 In addition to suicidality, young gay and bisexual men might also suffer body image dissatisfaction and disordered eating behaviors for some of the same reasons.26
"anon free"
"From the same article- the parts you left out- "Nonheterosexual youth are at higher risk of dropping out of school, being kicked out of their homes, and turning to life on the streets for survival." "are 2 to 4 times more likely to be threatened with a weapon at school"- and if you read Satcher's report- he says that the suicide and depression are a result of society's treatment of gay people. Kids kicked out of their homes and living on the streets- well, I doubt any kid in that situation makes good choices about drugs or alcohol and is certainly more likely to have unwanted sexual contact- how many kids do we hear about on the streets who turn to prostitution-this is not because they are gay or straight- but because they are kids alone and unwanted. and get victimized."
It's a long paper. I showed the quotes that contain the information that some of you fools were accusing me of making up. I didn't say what caused the antisocial behaviors. I'm saying they're there and will cause problems regardless of the cause. Stigmatization is no doubt part of it but there are numerous other stresses that follow along with the condition and which could reasonably be expected to cause problems. (let me know if you'd like me to elaborate) The point is, the schools should not present this lifestyle as if it were normal and problem-free. The fairy tale presented by GLAAD, GLSEN and PFLAG is not a reality based.
free
Now that you've read the article, which part was I making up? It does say the following, does it not?:
"those who engage in homosexual behavior have higher rates of suicide, drug abuse, alcoholism, random promiscuity and sexually transmitted disease than the general population"
"People who report this attraction are also more likely to have been sexually abused as adolescents"
No, it doesn't say that. Neither of those two quotes are in this article.
PB
"Nonheterosexual youth are more likely to have had sexual intercourse, to have had more partners, and to have experienced sexual intercourse against their will"
"Although only representing a portion of youth who someday will self-identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, school-based studies have found that these adolescents, compared with heterosexual peers, are 2 to 7 times more likely to attempt suicide,... and are more likely to engage in frequent and heavy use of alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine."
These are two exact quotes. They say the same thing a this:
"those who engage in homosexual behavior have higher rates of suicide, drug abuse, alcoholism, random promiscuity and sexually transmitted disease than the general population"
"People who report this attraction are also more likely to have been sexually abused as adolescents"
If you disagree, explain.
Anon,
Two points:
1) It say this: "Although only representing a portion of youth who someday will self-identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, school-based studies have found that these adolescents, compared with heterosexual peers. . . " Yes, very true. These kids are at risk. They are not at risk because they have a homosexual orientation, but because having that orientation leads to a higher incidence of all these untoward consequences.
2) The paper said this is a small proportion of all gays. One could find subgroups of other groups who have problems that stand out. And we often do. That means nothing, other than there is this group that needs help. They don't need bigotry.
I can easily make the case that these kids are as normal as your kids. Most of them looked pretty normal to their parents and neighbors. It was when they acted less masculine than they were supposed to, or came out, or feared the consequences of being who they are, that their problems began. You apparently don't know any, so I would suggest you get to know some families with gay kids and see how things are in real life. Problem-free? Of course not. That's why we're trying to educate their peers, so they will have fewer problems in the future.
anonymous said:
If you disagree, explain.
Anonymous as usual you got caught lying and leaving out huge portions.
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(Actual Full Paragraph and not just tiny portion handpicked by anonymous with his inserted quotes)
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/113/6/1827
Nonheterosexual youth are at higher risk of dropping out of school, being kicked out of their homes, and turning to life on the streets f