Wednesday, March 05, 2008

The Gazette: CRC Finished Appealing

Marcus Moore has the story in The Gazette this morning:
After years of failed attempts to have county schools’ sex-education curriculum thrown out, a collection of religious conservative groups has given up its legal battle and will turn to state lawmakers to help tweak the lesson plans.

It is a change for the opposition groups, who had also appealed to state agencies to halt the curriculum, which includes two 45-minute lessons in eighth- and 10th-grade on sexual orientation and a video on condom usage.

In January, county Circuit Court Judge William J. Rowan III decided the lessons are legal. Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum, Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays, and Family Leader Network have argued that it is illegal to teach students that homosexuality is innate. And even after the school system overhauled the curriculum, the groups say the lesson plans still teach alternative forms of sex to students.

Previously, State Superintendent Nancy S. Grasmick and the state school board upheld the county school board’s decision to move forward with the sex-education curriculum. The county board approved the curriculum in June with a response teachers can use when a student asks if homosexuality is an illness. Sex-ed opponents turn to lawmakers

I'll tell you, this is a very modest curriculum, but it's a breakthrough. These are things the schools should have been teaching decades ago, and it is pitiful that one little cell of radicals could postpone the inevitable for so long.

On Monday, Michelle Turner, a CRC spokeswoman, said the three groups never received a clear definition of ‘‘erotic technique” from the state school board and want state lawmakers to set a universal definition of the term.

‘‘Right now, we are just looking for a definition that could be used statewide,” she said. ‘‘We are seeking somebody at the state level to require a definition, so if that means the state legislators make a definition, then so be it.”

The law says the schools can't teach erotic techniques. The CRC has argued that saying the words "anal sex" in a classroom amounts to "teaching erotic techniques." It's a crazy argument, but they don't have much to work with. As someone said in the comments recently, it's like arguing that saying the word "algebra" is the same as teaching algebra. So lawmakers define the term -- so what? The schools don't "teach anal sex," they tell students to use a condom if they do that. It's good medical advice. You want to know how to practice anal sex, you'll have to ask your parents.

This next thing is worrisome, and just tells us the whack-a-mole will continue:
As for homosexuality being innate, the school system has not shown any ‘‘scientific proof” of that finding, so the groups are looking at different ways to pass the information along to students, she said.

Turner declined to say which lawmakers the groups have contacted, or how they would get their information to students. Other group members did not return repeated requests for comment.

‘‘We are exploring avenues now to get that information out, specifically to the students,” she said. ‘‘We’re not exposing our hand just yet. We need to fine-tune a couple of things before we put our message out there.”

They can put flyers in the bookbags four times a year. They can put billboards up near the schools. They can walk around in front of the schoolyard with bullhorns. I don't know, I guess we'll just have to wait to see what they come up with.
Turner did not rule out future litigation against the school system to stop the lessons. ‘‘I’m not going to say there are no more legal options,” she said. ‘‘Right now, we’re looking for a more direct route, and one that is more timely. At this time, we don’t think it’s possible to get a fair ruling.”

Ah, yes, the system is unfair to them. You sort of wonder what the "more direct route" could be, but I'll be glad to take a while and wait.

There is a little history of the controversy, and then quotes from famous people.
‘‘It sounds like they’re desperate,” said James Kennedy, a panel member and president of TeachtheFacts.org, a parents group formed to support the county’s sex-education curriculum. ‘‘They’re out of steam now. They’ve lost all their appeals. They’ve lost everything.”

Turner disagreed. ‘‘We’re not throwing in the towel,” she said. ‘‘We still have plenty of support. We still have plenty of people who want to see this curriculum fixed.”

The school system is ready to move past the litigation, said Brian K. Edwards, Superintendent Jerry D. Weast’s chief of staff.

‘‘This is good news for our community. Now, we can focus on our primary mission — educating children — and leave the courtroom behind,” he said of the groups’ decision not to file an appeal. ‘‘It has been a long, expensive journey, but in the end, the courts upheld the rule of law and rejected the notion that a small group of opponents can decide what will or will not be taught in our classrooms.”

This week, school board member Patricia B. O’Neill (Dist. 3) of Bethesda said it may be difficult for the groups to find a Montgomery lawmaker willing to take their side. She has spoken with several lawmakers who were on board with the lesson plans, O’Neill said.

‘‘I believe we are right,” she said. ‘‘I can’t imagine that they would find a Montgomery County sponsor.”

Del. Donald H. Dwyer Jr. said Wednesday that he ‘‘certainly would consider” helping the groups’ fight against the curriculum. But instead of the religious groups asking the state school board for a definition of ‘‘erotic technique,” it would be more worthwhile for a legislator to do so, he said.

‘‘I have a problem with the sex-ed curriculum, as do many parents in Montgomery County,” said Dwyer (R-Dist. 31) of Glen Burnie. ‘‘Somebody from Montgomery County ought to be fighting their cause.”

Students may opt in to take the lessons; those who don’t opt in take alternative classes. Ninety-five percent of eighth-graders participated in the lessons last October, and 97 percent of 10th-graders participated in the lessons last month, according to school system data.

I know some people who are saying this latest news spells victory for our side, but after all these years I am very reluctant to celebrate. I just know these people are going to come up with something else. In the meantime, let's take a deep breath, enjoy the peace and quiet, and brace ourselves for whatever nutty thing they come up with next.

58 Comments:

Anonymous Emproph said...

Michelle Turner, a CRC spokeswoman, said…
"As for homosexuality being innate, the school system has not shown any "scientific proof" of that finding,"

Could you imagine if she was trying to sell any of these to the public:

As for heterosexuality being innate, the school system has not shown any "scientific proof" of that finding.

As for human-sexuality being innate, the school system has not shown any "scientific proof" of that finding.

As for left-handedness being innate, the school system has not shown any "scientific proof" of that finding.

and so on, and so on...

March 05, 2008 2:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, for one thing, the school isn't teaching any of that. They are only teaching it about homosexuality in order to advocate for its normality and appropriateness.

March 05, 2008 3:02 PM  
Anonymous Derrick said...

Hey, AnonFreak.

Tell me again what you think about teachers who just happen to be gay.

I would like to know your insight.

Derrick

March 05, 2008 3:12 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

Red Baron, gayness is normal and apropriate. No amount of hate pushing by you will change that.

March 05, 2008 3:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Andrea- not anon
See, these pathetic bigots like Michele, Steina, Theresa, Wyatt, Johnny G, Weepy Ruth waste my time. They spend their time in this bigoted crap and I have to go out against them. I could be making blankets or cooking at the shelter or working on disability support at the county and state level. I still do those things but I could use more time instead of opposing their small-minded bigotry. I figure you have to be real fearful like Ruth or downright hateful like Theresa and Michele to spend their time doing this- over and over. I figure Johnny does it in hopes of getting work with the Liberty Counsel or Thomas More - "Making money from your bigotry- Please send more money to us today- we can always find someone for you to sue"

March 05, 2008 4:05 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

Yes, you're right Andrea, what a horrid waste these people's bigotry is. All the time money and effort they put into it and the time money and effort people are then forced to put into opposing this hatred is a huge opportunity cost that could go to the poor.

March 05, 2008 4:26 PM  
Anonymous Emproph said...

Michelle Turner, a CRC spokeswoman, said…
"We are exploring avenues now to get that information out, specifically to the students," she said. "We’re not exposing our hand just yet. We need to fine-tune a couple of things before we put our message out there."
--
Does the word creep-o-rama come to mind for anyone else?

No, I don’t think it will be flyers this time. I almost get the impression that it will be something like a group of students, in differing schools, coming out as "ex-gay" in unison.

The students themselves will be "living flyers," who can then claim religious persecution whenever their "ex-gay" demands for tolerance are not met.

At that point they can instigate frivilous lawsuits galore with carefree wanton abandon - clogging the courts and bringing our system of justice to a screeching halt. Thus, paving the way, once and for all, for the CRC to take over the universe (as far as MCPS is concerned).

…or something like that.

March 05, 2008 4:49 PM  
Anonymous Derrick said...

Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick makes a case for transgender protections
March 05, 2008
Chris Johnson

Patrick_deval_764Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick came out in support of legislation introduced by State Representative Carl Sciortino that would add the terms "gender identity and gender expression" to current state antidiscrimination and hate crime laws. Patrick, who has been a consistent ally of the Massachusetts GLBT community since he was elected governor in 2006, declared his support for transgender individuals being protected under state law in a letter read aloud during a Joint Commitee on the Judiciary hearing on the bill and other legislation yesterday.

MassEquality, the state GLBT group, and Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders will play key roles in getting the legislation signed into law to provide a much-needed line of defense for transgender individuals against discrimination:

Jennifer Levi, a senior staff attorney for Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders, said her organization routinely receives calls on its hot line from transgendered people experiencing discrimination. In one recent instance, she said, a woman working at a hardware store was fired shortly after it was disclosed that she was born a man.

The woman had little legal recourse, Levi said. "This law would clarify both who is protected . . . and who is subject to liability under the law," she said.

Congressman Barney Frank (D-MA) also submitted a statement in support of the legislation that was delivered by Diego Sanchez, public relations and external affairs director at AIDS Action Committee and a member of HRC's Steering Committee.

SourceL www.hrc.org

March 05, 2008 4:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I could be making blankets or cooking at the shelter or working on disability support at the county and state level. I still do those things but I could use more time instead of opposing their small-minded bigotry."

Think of all the time and money that could been directed to the poor had it not had to go to fighting an AIDS crisis caused by a tolerance of homosexual promiscuity in the late 1970s.

Think of the lives, time and money that would be saved if MCPS weren't going to teach a curriculum normalizing this dangerous homosexual lifestyle again.

March 05, 2008 6:57 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

Red Baron, the intolerance and rejection of gays by people like you is exactly what leads to the shame based behaviors that cause AIDS.

March 05, 2008 7:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

that's amazing, Priya, since the places where AIDS first surfaced were the very places where the stigma had pretty much disappeared

it was the removal of the stigma associated with homosexuality that unleashed the behavior that caused AIDS

remember AIDS has been found to be present in the US as far back as the 1950s

it only spread when, in certain areas, homosexuality became open and accepted and was allowed to flourish unhindered by community standards

March 05, 2008 8:05 PM  
Blogger BlackTsunami said...

anonymous,

you are like Paul Cameron. Every time your claims are refuted, you go to another thread and repeat them like nothing happened.

For the benefit of everyone, anonymous says the same thing about gays and AIDS on different parts of this blog. And when he is refuted, he goes to another thread and does the same thing.

March 05, 2008 8:44 PM  
Anonymous Emproph said...

"AIDS crisis caused by a tolerance of homosexual promiscuity"

So is your objection with homosexual or promiscuous?

March 05, 2008 8:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Priya Lynn said...
Red Baron, the intolerance and rejection of gays by people like you is exactly what leads to the shame based behaviors that cause AIDS

What a lame excuse. The devil made me do it! If you believe that rejection and intolerance of gays cause
aids, .--no accountability for one's actions is a sign of an immature individual

March 05, 2008 9:43 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

And you're not being accountable for your actions in causing the rejection and hate that leads to these behaviors.

March 05, 2008 10:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Every time your claims are refuted"

The refutation is all in your mind, BT.

March 06, 2008 12:02 AM  
Blogger BlackTsunami said...

Have it your way, anonymous. Your comments are getting old (they are already stale)

March 06, 2008 7:17 AM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

Turner lied about the curriculum in order to spin her anti-tolerance message for the media. The curriculum does not say homosexuality is innate; it says sexual orientation is innate.

The curriculum additions define sexual orientation as:

Sexual orientation—straight, gay, lesbian, or bisexual, “is a person’s emotional and romantic attraction towards members of the same sex, opposite sex, or both sexes.” (Holt)

The Holt resource used in the 10th grade curriculum addition says Sexual orientation and gender identity are deeply personal, innate, and complex parts of one's personality that define how people see themselves as individuals and in romantic relationships. Children are not born knowing their sexual orientation or gender identity. The come to learn about themselves as they grow up.

In January 2007, at the recommendation of Ms. Betsy Brown, Director MCPS Curriculum and Instruction, the BOE agreed to add a single sentence to the eighth grade curriculum addition which reads Sexual orientation is innate and a complex part of one's personality.

Nowhere does the MCPS curriculum single out one sexual orientation -- all of sexual orientations are noted as being deeply personal, innate, and complex parts of one's personality.

March 06, 2008 7:58 AM  
Anonymous Derrick said...

AnonFreak-

Remember, "Karma is a bi!ch!"

What goes around, comes around.

We'll see how you feel if your civil rights are taken away someday.

You are a disgrace to Christianity.
God does not promote hate. Maybe you need to read some up-to-date science journals. The bigot your are is the exact reason why this country is so polarized in so many ways. SHAME!!!

March 06, 2008 8:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Nowhere does the MCPS curriculum single out one sexual orientation -- all of sexual orientations are noted as being deeply personal, innate, and complex parts of one's personality."

There is only one orientation, AB. It is innate. Same sex activity and desire is simply a warped parody of normal relations. That's why one of the partners usually assumes the female role. There is no real male-to-male attraction. It's male to pretend female or pretend female to male that's being manifested.

March 06, 2008 8:13 AM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

Last night's preview section of ABC new's "Nightline" indicated that tonight they would be having a segment on an MTF in transition. They included a clip of her going into the restroom. Personally, I don't understand the fascination people have with transsexual urination and defication. It seems to be a topic of endless debate however.

Peace,

Cynthia

March 06, 2008 8:45 AM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

There is only one orientation, AB. It is innate.

Well, you're half right. Sexual orientation IS innate, but the part you got wrong is the number of orientations. Some people are attracted by members of the opposite sex (heterosexual orientation), some by members of the same sex (homosexual orientation), and some by both (bisexual orientation).

Thanks for publishing your false belief that there is only one orientation though. It makes it clear which side in this debate deals with facts and which side deals with delusion.

March 06, 2008 9:34 AM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

The link to the "Transgender Exec" is now on the ABC news website. http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/

As you might imagine, many of the comments are quite negative.

Peace,

Cynthia

March 06, 2008 10:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Andrea-not anon
The darned poor people, people who are ill, people who are disabled, the people who live under repressive gov'ts- wow, if not for homosexuals, the whole world would be full of rainbows and unicorns and lollipops. Moron anon is just another lowlife bigot-you can hear the same song it and its overloads sing all through history- just change the "cause" of all the trouble.

March 06, 2008 10:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous:
I am constantly amazed and sickened at your non-stop hateful references to "homosexual promiscuity" and "dangerous lifestyle". You are a wonderful example of your so-called "Christian charity"!
If, as you and others of your ilk are fond of pointing out, homosexuals comprise a very small segment of the population, and if you recognize that promiscuity seems to be a HUMAN trait (or in your words, a "sin"), you would have to be appalled and disgusted with the HUGE amoung of promiscuity and engaging in a "dangerous lifestyle" that exists among the majority heterosexual populace (e.g. "What happens in Las Vegas, stays in Las Vegas", heterosexual males and females seeking "secret", "down-low", "discreet" sexual encounters on on-line posting sites, the horrendous divorce rate of heterosexual couples and the resulting damage done to children of divorces.)
Perhaps if you spent even 1/10th of the time you spend here judging, excoriating, and condemning those who do not share either your own distorted religious "convictions" or your own sexual orientation and spent that time trying to correct the problems in your own houses, we could actually see some improvement in the "dangerous heterosexual lifestyle" that you represent and espouse. Our society would definitely benefit from the religious teachings: "Physician, heal thyself" and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"...try living those precepts for once in your life.
Diogenes

March 06, 2008 10:47 AM  
Blogger BlackTsunami said...

blah blah blah, have it your way anonymous.

it's not that i do not want to refute you, it's just that you bleat the same incorrect message over and over again. it gets tiresome.

March 06, 2008 12:36 PM  
Blogger Tish said...

Flippancy takes over: I see the headline and I can't help but ask,

When was the CRC ever appealing?

March 06, 2008 1:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

svelte_brunette said...
Last night's preview section of ABC new's "Nightline" indicated that tonight they would be having a segment on an MTF in transition. They included a clip of her going into the restroom. Personally, I don't understand the fascination people have with transsexual urination and defication. It seems to be a topic of endless debate however.


______________

Transgender Executive: 'Just a Different Person Now Than I Was Then'

Wife, Kids, and Co-Workers Cope With One Man's Decision to Become a Woman

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4394493&page=1


Ted

March 06, 2008 3:02 PM  
Anonymous Robert said...

Anonymode said:

"That's why one of the partners usually assumes the female role."

Where do you get this stuff.

Robert

March 07, 2008 10:26 AM  
Anonymous David Weintraub said...

He clicks through to all the porn spam that appears in his inbox, obviously.

It's hilarious, in a sad sort of way, and underscores why we cannot afford to allow porn spam to be the default mode for human sexuality education.

The poor little man.

March 07, 2008 10:32 AM  
Anonymous Derrick said...

So, AnonFreak- when are you going to come out of the closet already? Be true to yourself!

It's OK to be gay!

March 07, 2008 11:06 AM  
Anonymous Emproph said...

Andrea-not anon said...
"The darned poor people, people who are ill, people who are disabled, the people who live under repressive gov'ts- wow, if not for homosexuals, the whole world would be full of rainbows and unicorns and lollipops. Moron anon is just another lowlife bigot-you can hear the same song it and its overloads sing all through history- just change the "cause" of all the trouble."
--
Yeah, what she said anon. And for your information, rainbows in the sky are obviously an expression of God's love for gays.

Leslie Gore - Sunshine, Lollypops And Rainbows

March 07, 2008 11:54 AM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

Derrick, back in the "Tomorrow we get to see it" thread anonymous more or less admitted that he's a closeted gay. Back then I said he was using his anti-gay hatred to suppress his own sexuality, he replied "I've been trying to deal with some of these feelings lately, since Randi has pointed out that I may not be "objective" about this topic of homosexuality. Please give me a little time."

March 07, 2008 1:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That was a different anon.

Given the ridiculousness of the statement, probably a TTF decoy.

It happens. Duplicity goes hand-in-hand with anti-gender lunacy.

March 07, 2008 1:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

BTW, Priya, haven't much time lately to continue to your education about the gay contribution to the rise of Nazism in Germany in the 1930s. I've got a bunch of information that may interest you. As a preview, you should read a 2001 book by Lothal Machtan, a professor of history at Bremen University in Germany. It's called "Hidden Hitler" and documents the secret gay life of Hitler. Turns out Hitler had an affair as a young man while working as an artist in Vienna with another artist named August Kubizewr. Further, Machtan shows that one of the reasons Hitler killed the gays that were running his largest military organization was an attempt to cover up his gay past with Rohm because he was being blackmailed by another Nazi officer who found out about it and Hitler wanted to kill off those who could confirm it.

March 07, 2008 1:54 PM  
Anonymous Emproph said...

Anonymous said...
"anti-gender lunacy"

Anti-human lunacy. We are anti-human lunatics.

All I'm saying is that if you're going to insult us with your anti-sanity idiocy, please get it right.

March 07, 2008 1:58 PM  
Anonymous Emproph said...

Anti-sanity idiocy said...
"the gay contribution to the rise of Nazism in Germany in the 1930s."

Brilliant. Evil gays, means gay = evil.

But the real "argument" is that the evil straights who were responisible for the Holocaust, are still holy, simply because they were attracted to the opposite gender.

Touche' anti-sanity anon, touche'.

March 07, 2008 2:06 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

Red Baron said ""I've been trying to deal with some of these feelings lately, since Randi has pointed out that I may not be "objective" about this topic of homosexuality. Please give me a little time."


And then "That was a different anon."


LOL, you'd like us to believe that, but it clearly was you same writing style and content - obsessively anti-gay. We've seen it again and again, those who shout the loudest about hating gays are the ones who really hate themselves.

Red Baron said "BTW, Priya, haven't much time lately to continue to your education about the gay contribution to the rise of Nazism in Germany in the 1930s.".

You're totally incapable of contributing to my education. In order to do so you'd have to know something other than lies and clearly you don't. Your book of lies about Hitler impresses no one, there are books denying the Holocaust too and the one you suggest is in the same category. Hitler was a devout heterosexual Christian.

March 07, 2008 2:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Hitler was a devout heterosexual Christian."

Glad you said this, Priya. It's so ridiculous that I don't have to spend time debunking your other nonsense.

Hitler was raised Roman Catholic. After leaving home in his youth, he never attended church other than occassional political phot-ops. His favorite philosopher was Nietzche who said "God is dead." He dedicated his book, Mein Kampf, to Dietrich Eckert, a leader in the Thule Society, an occult group which was trying to convert Germany to a pagan worship of mythological beings from Norse legends. He hated Christianity and stated that he wished Germany had been Islamic because it was a "muscular" religion compared to the "meekness and flabbiness" of Christianity. He activley promoted trying to replace Christianity with something called "Positive Christianity", obviously signalling that he didn't think Christianity was postive.

Your only argument that he was a devout Christian is a speech, early in his career, long before he came to power, where he was obviously trying out ways to manipulate the masses. Remember, a few years after that, while in prison, he wrote in his book, Mein Kampf, about how he learned to manipulate public opinion by lying.

March 07, 2008 2:48 PM  
Anonymous Emproph said...

Anti-sanity said...
"Your only argument that he was a devout Christian is a speech, early in his career, long before he came to power, where he was obviously trying out ways to manipulate the masses. Remember, a few years after that, while in prison, he wrote in his book, Mein Kampf, about how he learned to manipulate public opinion by lying."
---
Yet your argument remains: Same-sex attraction is responsible for the rise of naziism and the holocaust.

Second time now. Please do expound on what you seem to consider to be the direct connection between SSA and genocide.

Because a direct connection between genocide, and the supremacist "Christianity" that you testify to, can EASILY be made.

March 07, 2008 3:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"LOL, you'd like us to believe that, but it clearly was you same writing style and content - obsessively anti-gay."

You go ahead and think that if it turns you on.

"We've seen it again and again, those who shout the loudest about hating gays are the ones who really hate themselves."

I don't hate gays. I judge people individually. I make some arguments here, not "shouts", that may make gay advocates uncomfortable but, you know, truth is like that.

Heck, I even watched the finale of Project Runway the other night. How could someone do that and hate gays?

"Your book of lies about Hitler impresses no one, there are books denying the Holocaust too and the one you suggest is in the same category."

Not my book. The author is a respected German historian. "Hidden Hitler" was his first book translated into English. The Washington Post praised it as well-documented and carefully researched. If you'll read the book, you'll find that Machtan goes out of his way to say he wasn't implying that homosexuality leads to evil. So, he wasn't biased.

Still, facts are facts. You ought to get acquainted with a few. You have a lot of nerve comparing this historian with Holocaust deniers when you're sitting their denying facts just because you're afraid of how it might reflect on your cause.

March 07, 2008 3:11 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

More lies Red Baron, you're getting boring. Hitler was no fan of Nietzche. Nowhere in Mein Kampf does he refer to Nietzche, he never refered to him in any of his writings or philosophies - this is a favourite lie of Christianists like you who are afraid to accept the reality that he was one of your own.


Positive Christianity was his attempt to unite the Catholic and protestant churchs, it was pro-christianity, not anti. Hitler most certainly never said that he wished Germany was Islamic.

Red Baron said "Your only argument that he was a devout Christian is a speech, early in his career, long before he came to power, where he was obviously trying out ways to manipulate the masses. Remember, a few years after that, while in prison, he wrote in his book, Mein Kampf, about how he learned to manipulate public opinion by lying.".

You're willfully blind. That most certainly wasn't the only speech in which Hitler affirmed his Christianity and I've repeatedly demonstrated that to you. He did so throughout his life and that is documented here:

http://nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm


Read it for once and stop repeating the lie that the only argument I've presented for his Christianity is one speech early in his career. Hitler affirmed his Christianity repeatedly up until his death. In 1941 Hitler told Gerhard Engel (one of his generals) "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

And contrary to your lies througout Mein Kampf Hitler also affirmed his Christianity by saying things such as "I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Mein Kampf is loaded with similar affirmations of Hitler's Christianity:

http://nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

Hitler's personal bible also attests to his devout Christianity as it is loaded with personal notes showing this:

http://nobeliefs.com/HitlerBible.htm


Hitler affirmed his christianity regularly and firmly in a wide variety of venues, speeches,radio addresses, proclaimations and writings. Your feeble claims to the contrary stand out as being highly atypical of what Hitler was all about. The worst homicidal maniac in history was a Christian driven by his understanding of the bible to kill six million Jews.

March 07, 2008 3:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Yet your argument remains: Same-sex attraction is responsible for the rise of naziism and the holocaust."

No, Patrick, that's not my argument. There are some gays in history who contributed so vitally to the Nazi movement that it probably wouldn't have happened without their help. But that doesn't mean "same-sex attraction is responsible for the rise of naziism and the holocaust." It does shoot a hole in the idea, frequently articulated by TTFers here, including, I believe, you, that to hold that homosexuality is wrong is the equivalent of Nazism.

BTW, there is an argument to be made that the type of homosexuality that Rohm, and perhaps Hitler, were involved in can lead to hyper-agressiveness and violence, but we'll leave that for another day.

March 07, 2008 3:22 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

Red Baron said "If you'll read the book, you'll find that Machtan goes out of his way to say he wasn't implying that gayness leads to evil. So, he wasn't biased.".

Anti-gay religionists make this claim all the time and it clearly isn't true - you are biased against gays. And you most certainly are trying to say that gayness leads to evil. I don't read Holocaust deniar's books either and I won't be reading anti-gay propoganda like this. You claimed Hitler had a relationship with Eva Braun to hide his sexuality. That clearly isn't the case given that he kept his relationship with her a secret and the german public didn't know about it until after the war. There was no reason for him to have this relationship other than his being heterosexual as he never used it to present a public face as a closeted gay might.

You've also now contradicted your earlier claim that the only orientation people have is heterosexuality - you can't claim that everyone is heterosexual and then wave your magic wand and say that Hitler was gay. You can't have it both ways.

March 07, 2008 3:22 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

Red Baron said "There are some gays in history who contributed so vitally to the Nazi movement that it probably wouldn't have happened without their help.".

What absolute stupidity. The Nazi party was comprised virtually entirely of heterosexuals, it was heterosexuals who were responsible for all the atrocities. No reputable historian would agree with that.

March 07, 2008 3:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The worst homicidal maniac in history was a Christian driven by his understanding of the bible to kill six million Jews."

Quite a huge lie.

Can you show one example of a Jew coverting to Christianity and being granted non-Jewish status by the Nazis?

Of course not. Hitler was a racist not a religionist.

March 07, 2008 3:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"What absolute stupidity. The Nazi party was comprised virtually entirely of heterosexuals, it was heterosexuals who were responsible for all the atrocities. No reputable historian would agree with that."

The group that did their dirty work, going out and breaking up meetings of opposition groups with violent attacks and killing opposition leaders was dominated by a group of gays.

Stop denying history. I'm off for the day.

March 07, 2008 3:29 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

You're the one denying history Red Baron. Hitler was a devout heterosexaul Christian as was virtually every Nazi that ever lived. The idea that a tiny minority of gays dominated any large group open to the general public is as far fetched as the idea that Jews were responsible for the rise of the Nazi party. The Nazi party called for the death of gays from day 1 and immediately upon taking power in 1933 they began persecuting gays like had never happened before.

March 07, 2008 3:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anti-gay religionists make this claim all the time and it clearly isn't true - you are biased against gays."

This is quite a rationalization for rejecting anything you don't want to hear.

"And you most certainly are trying to say that gayness leads to evil."

It's possible that this true but I'm just saying the Nazi example doesn't prove it. Emproph was saying this and I agree with him.

"You claimed Hitler had a relationship with Eva Braun to hide his sexuality. That clearly isn't the case given that he kept his relationship with her a secret and the german public didn't know about it until after the war. There was no reason for him to have this relationship other than his being heterosexual as he never used it to present a public face as a closeted gay might."

Actually, there could be a reason. Maybe the public wasn't who he was trying to fool.

March 07, 2008 3:38 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

Note that now that Red Baron has left work he doesn't want to spend any more time on his anti-gay crusade. He only wants to spend time on it when his employer is paying him to do something else.

March 07, 2008 3:39 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

Red Baron said "Maybe the public wasn't who he was trying to fool.".


If he was trying to fool anyone it would have been much better done by making his relationship public. Clearly he didn't because he wasn't trying to fool anyone.

March 07, 2008 3:41 PM  
Anonymous Emproph said...

["Yet your argument remains: Same-sex attraction is responsible for the rise of naziism and the holocaust."]

"No, Patrick, that's not my argument. There are some gays in history who contributed so vitally to the Nazi movement that it probably wouldn't have happened without their help."

It works the same way if you say that “There are some straights in history who contributed so vitally to the Nazi movement that it probably wouldn't have happened without their help.

Your argument seems to be that gays are MORE responsible than straights for the movement. Is this what you contend?

“BTW, there is an argument to be made that the type of homosexuality that Rohm, and perhaps Hitler, were involved in can lead to hyper-agressiveness and violence, but we'll leave that for another day.”

Actually no, this is precisely the argument you are making today.

That somehow there is a "type of homosexuality" that leads to "hyper-aggressiveness and violence," that then leads to genocide.

It seems to me that this is the source of your argument.

All I'm asking for is that you demonstrate the connection. Show us, so that we can all bow down, acknowledge, and then condemn this "type of" homosexuality.

You do have proof of this don't you?

March 07, 2008 3:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Duplicity goes hand-in-hand with anti-gender lunacy.

Lying goes hand-in-hand with pro-hate lunacy and that's why the Citzen's Link article lied about the AAA position on the history of families.

only argument that he [Hitler] was a devout Christian is a speech, early in his career

Liar. Click and learn

Picture worth 1,000 words

Another picture worth 1,000 words

Information about Catholic leaders of the Third Reich

March 08, 2008 5:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow! A picture of Hitler, a leader of his nation at the time, meeting with the religious leader of many of his constituents. You'd almost think Hitler must have been a politician.

I guess we can now attribute the views of Hitler to anyone he ever talked to.

March 08, 2008 5:38 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

Red Baron, for once take a look at ALL of these pictures:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm

Note the Nazi priests and bishops marching in Nazi parades and giving the Hitler salute in honour of Hitler. Note the Nazis and the Vatican signing the concordat which neither side ever cancelled.
Note the nun asking for Hitler's autograph, note the carvings of Nazi soldiers inside the church and the Nazi soldiers depicted with Jesus.

No Nazi including Hitler was ever excommunicated from the Church. Church leaders were regularly heard to comment that the Nazi party was the only thing that stood between Europe and evil. The Nazi party and the Church were one.

March 09, 2008 2:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The sad thing, Priya, is that, much like Hollywood moguls and Catholics, you think the Catholic Church is The Church.

It's not. You're 500 years behind the times.

March 09, 2008 7:22 PM  
Anonymous Emproph said...

Anonymous said...
"The sad thing, Priya, is that, much like Hollywood moguls and Catholics, you think the Catholic Church is The Church.

It's not. You're 500 years behind the times."

--
Oh how brilliant. You know Priya is atheist, yet you accuse her of believing that one church is more important than another?
--
Well now that we've established that anon, I'd appreciate very much if you'd address my very very valid questions, in regard to the points you brought up earlier.

"Your argument seems to be that gays are MORE responsible than straights for the [Nazi] movement. Is this what you contend?"

Is this what you contend anon? I asked this question, and you didn't answer it. Is it because you can't answer it, or because you don't want to?
--
"All I'm asking for is that you demonstrate the connection. Show us, so that we can all bow down, acknowledge, and then condemn this "type of" [hyper-aggressiveness] homosexuality.

You do have proof of this don't you?"

--
TELL US ANON, WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE FOR THIS TYPE OF "HYPER-AGGRESSIVE" HOMOSEXUALITY THAT YOU SPEAK OF?

March 09, 2008 9:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Red Baron, for once take a look at ALL of these pictures"

Priya, various denominations have different opinions on what makes a person a Christian.

None think having your picture taken with a priest does it.

However, since you apparently believe in the magic of pictures, I guess you will concede that the thousands of pictures of Hitler marching around with Ernst Rohm and Edmund Heines prove that he was gay.

March 09, 2008 10:51 PM  

Post a Comment

<< Home