Sunday, May 11, 2008

David Fishback on NewsChannel 8: Transcript

A couple of weeks ago, you might remember, we were talking HERE about the bizarre story on Channel Seven News, Greta Kreuz talking about whether gay people can change, and telling about a new book saying they can. The Channel 7 story made it sound like there's a real controversy, that maybe gay people can become straight. That channel, and particularly that reporter, has been especially willing to promote certain unsupported viewpoints regarding sexual orientation.

After my first complaint, David Fishback wrote a guest post HERE where he went into the matter in more detail. He has more patience than I do, and he rebutted the various statements that were made in the news show. Subsequently he was invited to appear on NewsChannel 8's show called News Talk, with Bruce DePuyt. A guy from Exodus International was also invited, he participated over the phone. Exodus is an organization that promotes the idea that homosexual people can and should learn to be heterosexual. The ten-minute segment aired on Wednesday, May 7th. Channels 7 and 8 are owned by the same company. For some reason, you watch them on Comcast channels 27 and 28, I don't know why you'd want to be called "Channel X" but people watch you on channel Y.

DePuyt introduced the segment by nothing that earlier in the week the American Psychiatric Association had canceled a planned panel at their convention in Washington, D.C., that would have discussed issues surrounding sexual orientation (discussed on this blog HERE). Here is the transcript of the interview from there:
Bruce DePuyt (BD): Organizers say they pulled the plug when one of their participants backed out. Others say it was pressure from gay activists. In a moment, we’ll talk about whether gays and lesbians are born with same sex attractions and whether someone can be, quote, cured of homosexuality.

But first, our Greta Kreuz. [The earlier news report that had been aired on News Channel 8’s sister station, WJLA, can be seen HERE.]

Bruce DePuyt (BD): Joining us now live in the studio is David Fishback of the Metro DC Chapter of PFLAG -- Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, Good to see you again. With us by phone is Randy Thomas of Exodus International. Thank you for your time today.

Randy Thomas (RT): Thank you.

BD: Your reaction, Mr. Thomas, to the cancellation of the conference.

RT: Well, you know, the APA’s decision conveys that they would rather shut us up than to reach out. Any time you allow one party to dictate the terms of dialogue, you abandon equality. Where does this decision leave people of faith? It leaves us out in the cold. We do have a valid testimony , we do have valid viewpoints that should be considered.

BD: Mr. Fishback, do you agree that , in general, you know, that people will have differences? But at least at a conference, at least people are talking. Maybe past each other, but they are talking. Do you regret that the conference was cancelled?

David Fishback (DF): Well, the problem, I think, is in terms of who the representative of the ex-gay group was. Professor Throckmorton has taken many positions over the years that have been absolutely at odds with the positions of every single mainstream American medical and mental health association including that of the American Medical Association, which has concluded that these conversion therapies are dangerous and should not be engaged in. So when you’re talking about….

BD: But what does he advocate?

DF: I know a number of years ago, when I was looking at this very closely for the Montgomery County Public Schools, his view was that, well, as long as somebody has an explanation as to why they are gay – frankly, whether it’s correct or not – that gives them some comfort that there is somebody to blame. Well, that approach is fundamentally destructive of families The medical community, the scientific community has concluded that sexual orientation is not a choice, Simply because the science has not been able to pin down the precise etiology of what causes sexual orientation does not mean that the scientific community is incorrect when they say that, one, it’s not a choice, and, two, it’s not something that’s caused, as the American Academy of Pediatrics has said, it’s not something caused by abnormal parenting or abusive relationships. And that’s the key thing here.

I suspect, but I don’t know, what the APA may have been concerned about was whether Dr. Throckmorton now accepts the science and his viewpoint is, “Well , that if people have theological viewpoints, they have to find ways to live happy lives being celibate,” that would be a legitimate discussion. But if the question is, well, can people really change, all the scientific evidence is that people can’t and it is cruel to tell people they can.

BD: Mr. Thomas, are you at all sympathetic to the view that much of the rhetoric we hear. Now you’re telling an entire class of people that they are essentially invalid?..

RT: Well, what I’m here to say is that 16 years ago I decided not to identify as a gay man and to seek change and I was met with answers that I was [unintelligible] to my life. And Exodus has had a 70% growth rate in five years The demand for our viewpoint is out there and people are wanting something other than the politically correct doctrine that most of these organizations are espousing. Because the truth is that change happens incrementally. For some people it doesn’t happen. For other people it does. For me, it has. And so the APA to completely ignore that reality that there is incremental change for people of faith is to ignore the reality that this issue is a lot broader, a lot more complicated than what the activists are presenting.

BD: Mr. Thomas, let me ask you this: And let’s see if we can get both of you to find any middle ground at all. Is it possible, Mr. Thomas, that some people with same sex attractions would like not to have it and so that this therapy is the way to go and living a heterosexual life is the preferred way, but that some gays and lesbians are very happy as they are and there shouldn’t be a suggestion that all gays need curing

RT: Well, we never suggested that all gays need to be cured. That’s not one of our talking points. That’s our opponent’s talking point. We respect the right to self-determination and that is what the APA is supposed to be about: That people can look at arguments from both sides, they can look at the testimonies of people who identify as gay and have long term relationships and they can look at my testimony and the testimony of thousands of others like me . And they can make the decision for themselves. I would completely agree that no one should feel shame or condemnation for their same sex attraction. I speak out against that as much as I do about how change is possible. That’s my way of grace. I do not agree that there is only one option for people with same sex attractions.

BD: Mr. Fishback, do you think that gays need to be more tolerant of folks who’ve adopted the path of Mr. Thomas and others.

DF: I think people should always be sympathetic to people who hold strong theological viewpoints that impact how they would like to live their lives. But what Mr. Thomas ignores is the fact that the American Medical Association, not some interest group, the American Medical Association has explicitly condemned conversion therapies that are based on the proposition that people should or ought to change their sexual orientation. Why….

RT: And they are yet another professional organization that has been taken over by gay activists.

DF: So the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological Association -- basically, what Mr. Thomas is saying is that all the respected medical groups in this country have been taken over by some kind of cabal without any basis in science, without any basis in fact. And that the only people who are right are the people with a particular theological agenda. I may wish to be……

RT: That’s not the truth. The APA is ignoring people like myself and they need to quit it.

DF: I may wish to be six feet tall, but nothing I can do can make me six feet tall.

BD: David Fishback, Randy Thomas, thank you very much for your time. Unfortunately, we will have to leave the debate there for now We thank both of you for coming in.

I've talked about this before, but the point is an important one. Thomas says "We respect the right to self-determination," and that sounds wonderful -- but there is no right to self-determination for some things. You don't pick your race, your facial features, your birthday, your eye-color, your sexual orientation, your parents. The idea that you have some kind of right to self-determine your biological characteristics is just crazy. But the sentence appears to give no grounds for argument. Everybody respects the right to self-determination for things that we can self-determine -- education, profession, choice of friends, things that we really do have a choice in, this is what we Americans call "freedom." But self-determination does not apply to sexual orientation and that is the whole point. If there was self-determination of sexual orientation, then there would not be any reason to talk about this, the scientists would agree with the religious guys and that would be that. But the fact is, the argument simply doesn't apply, and the statement is nonsense. And groups like Exodus International believe their nonsense should be considered as an equal counterweight to the considered consensus of physicians, researchers, and scientists.

17 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"the bizarre story on Channel Seven News, Greta Kreuz talking about whether gay people can change,"

What's really bizarre is how determined the lunatic fringe is to squelch any discussion that considers if people can free themselves from the homosexual lifestyle.

Let's face it: homosexuality has become a cult. If someone joins, the gay fringe will do whatever they can to keep them from leaving the cult. The gay cult wants to trap weak people, especially young people, and then, once they're snared, to make them think they're trapped in their misery.

May 11, 2008 11:27 PM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

Anon said
“Let's face it: homosexuality has become a cult. If someone joins, the gay fringe will do whatever they can to keep them from leaving the cult. The gay cult wants to trap weak people, especially young people, and then, once they're snared, to make them think they're trapped in their misery.”

Be careful Anon, this whole LGBT thing is VERY contagious. Just hanging around on this blog could infect you. Working in the ex-gay ministry is particularly dangerous because the gay folks can turn you gay at the same time you’re trying to turn them straight!

You can read how insidious this cult is here:
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-4795.html

My favorite excerpt is this:

“Darlene Bogle, recent author of A Christian Lesbian Journey, was another prominent member of the movement who directed an ex-gay ministry for over ten years.

She says that for a time her sexual feelings towards women disappeared because, "I was so busy trying to help other people I just shut down my emotions inside myself."

Then in 1990 she saw a woman sat in the front row of a weekend workshop she was running.

"As soon as our eyes met, I knew I was gay."

"She was everything that God would have given me. I knew everything I was teaching at Exodus was a lie and that I needed to reassess my own sexual orientation."

"Just because I wasn't acting on my attraction, which I didn't seem to have at that point, didn't mean that I was ex-gay."

Her book charts what happened after leaving the organisation up until her partner died of breast cancer in 2005, and outlines her belief that being religious and gay are not mutually exclusive.

"Every scripture substantiated that I was in fact born homosexual and was something God wanted me to embrace."

"Being gay is not something you're cursed with or need to change. It's something you can celebrate along with your spirituality."

It's a view shared by Londoner, Jeremy Marks, who in 1988 was running an ex-gay ministry.

"Whatever group we mix with, we trend inevitably to adopt the views of that group," says Marks who was brought up an evangelical Christian.

Believing his attraction to men to be wrong, he became an ex-gay hoping for a cure and also took the step of getting married, "as a step of change towards that change."

"But if anything, getting married confirmed how much my orientation had not changed."

In 2000 he changed his ministry to a gay-affirming one.

"It took me a long time to realise that mainline, well-established Churches can be wrong, as they were over slavery and with women."

"The current issue in today's world is homosexuality. But it's changing at roots level, and in 20 or 30 years time I believe it will be very different."

-----

It’s a good thing you’re separated from me by what is likely many miles of copper cable and fiber optics. I’m a trannie after all, and if there’s one thing that’s possibly worse than being gay, it’s being me!

I’m a walking bio-hazard!

You may want to use gloves when you type… no telling what kind of germs you might pick up around here.

Peace,

Cynthia

May 12, 2008 12:16 AM  
Blogger Emproph said...

Randy Thomas, Vice President of Exodus International said…

"Well, we never suggested that all gays need to be cured. That’s not one of our talking points. That’s our opponent’s talking point."


Exodus International itself says...


"EXODUS upholds heterosexuality as God's creative intent for humanity, and subsequently views homosexual expression as outside of God's will. EXODUS cites homosexual tendencies as one of many disorders that beset fallen humanity. Choosing to resolve these tendencies through homosexual behavior, taking on a homosexual identity, and involvement in the homosexual lifestyle is considered destructive, as it distorts God's intent for the individual and is thus sinful."

May 12, 2008 7:17 AM  
Blogger BlackTsunami said...

Good responses David.

I would like to hear more about that "success rate."

Also, what the representative from Exodus omitted was that while his organization pleads innoncence, they covertly work with the anti-gay industry to undermine the rights of those who ARE comfortable with their lgbt orientation.

The cancelled panel discussion is a perfect example. One of the reasons why it was cancelled was because how religious right groups were putting their spin on it before it even took place.

May 12, 2008 7:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No one is "ex-Gay"; one can only be "ex-confused Heterosexual" Perhaps if we looked at this bogus issue in this context, it might result in the demise of groups like Exodus (whose "change" is based on the premise that if one is only more Christian one can change their fundamental being) and the ludicrous PFOX (headed by a woman who still laments her own gay son). If one subscribes to Exodus, et al., one has to be a Christian. Too bad for those who are of different religious beliefs...no doubt they are condemned to eternal damnation.

May 12, 2008 9:34 AM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

Of course, the conversion of ex-gay ministers into gays begs several pertinent questions:

Were these promoters of the ex-gay movement born gay? Did they promote the ex-gay agenda to as a mechanism to try and hide / fix their own same-sex attraction? Had they been “normal” heterosexuals, would they have tried so hard to convert gays? Are promoters of the ex-gay movement struggling with their own same sex attractions? Do they need to cling to the belief that they can change their orientation to keep from slipping into the so-called “gay lifestyle”?

To frame it in the form of a CRG argument, aren’t these gays just delusional? Shouldn’t they be getting help to accept the fact that they’re gay rather than force the rest of the gays to conform to their confusion? How many accommodations should we have to make for gays who think they’re ex-gays?

Is the gay movement really so powerful that it can turn even stalwart ex-gay ministers into gay ministers against their will? How long before they start converting “normal” people into gays? Is this really a decades-long plot by Green Peace to reduce the human population and save the planet?

My favorite question comes when viewed from the perspective of the “gay cult”. It arrives in a menacing, mechanical, and distinctly effeminate tone: “We are the Gay Borg. Resistance is futile. By the way, where did you get those wonderful shoes?”

Peace,

Cynthia

May 12, 2008 9:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The idea that you have some kind of right to self-determine your biological characteristics is just crazy."

The idea that all desires are biological isn't just crazy, it's dangerous.

May 12, 2008 10:35 AM  
Blogger David S. Fishback said...

A friend who is a member of the APA forwarded this:

***************************

The Bay Area Reporter story (reprinted below) has the facts correct
http://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=2961

Sadly, the religious right has been trying to spin the same story for its own purposes, one of the most sensationalistic spins below:

"Eminent Psychiatrist Says Homosexuality is a Disorder that Can be Cured"
http://www.prophecyfellowship.org/showthread.php?t=323698

*****************************

May 12, 2008 12:46 PM  
Anonymous anon-deluxe said...

Thanks for that objective report from a paper who has this in the "About Us" part of their website:

"Bay Area Reporter is San Francisco's oldest and largest local newspaper of record serving the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender communities."

Yes, that little propaganda piece "served" the gay cult movement but did little to assist those who would like to be freed from bondage to gay impulses. So, unfortunately, not all gays were served.

May 12, 2008 1:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

David, David. There you go again spinning the truth. Look at what you are saying.
Exgay therpy never, never, never says that a person “SHOULD or OUGHT to CHANGE’. That is telling other people what they should do. The transgender person keeps telling you that all the time. They want to change their body. Why aren’t you telling them that they can’t do that?

You keep saying, Sexual Orientation is not a choice but you never say what kind of choice. Initial choice? Choice later on in life? That is like saying, a club foot is not a choice but everybody knows you have a choice to change that later.
Another thing, you said, “it’s not something that’s caused, as the American Academy of Pediatrics has said, by abnormal parenting or abusive relationships.”
How many gays and ex-gays have you talked to? All the ones I have talked to have confessed that they were either sexually abused as a child or did not relate to their same sex parent, because of personality conflicts etc. What are you talking about when you say “abusive relationships”? Dana says his problem was because her mother took some drug when he was in her womb. Was that being abusive and she did not know it to be so? Is Dana blaming her mother? Is Dana now finding comfort now that she has someone to blame? Is this tearing Dana’s family apart? Does Dana blame mother or did Dana forgive her mother? Your vague term “abnormal parenting” needs explanation. What the heck is that? Isn’t that subjective? It is not an issue of “blaming=guilt” someone or a situation, it is about finding out how your environment affected your thinking and feelings. Then you have the free will to do what you want to do. Does the Jewish religion preach forgiveness?

JK.
Yes you can pick your race, facial features, eye color your sexual orientation and your parents.
Race-happens all the time- bi-racial children
Facial features-ask a women
Eye color-colored contact lens
Sexual orientation- DF was talking to one who choose
Parents-anyone can disown their parents and choose another one


Let’s get one thing straight- The right to determination is in one of the Code of Ethics of the American Psychological Association, one of the organizations you put so much credence in. This concept is considered “consensus of physicians, researchers and scientists.” Why do you suppose they say that?

“The idea that you have some kind of right to self-determine your biological characteristics is just crazy.” Dana would disagree with that.


































David Fishback on NewsChannel 8: Transcript
A couple of weeks ago, you might remember, we were talking HERE about the bizarre story on Channel Seven News, Greta Kreuz talking about whether gay people can change, and telling about a new book saying they can. The Channel 7 story made it sound like there's a real controversy, that maybe gay people can become straight. That channel, and particularly that reporter, has been especially willing to promote certain unsupported viewpoints regarding sexual orientation.

After my first complaint, David Fishback wrote a guest post HERE where he went into the matter in more detail. He has more patience than I do, and he rebutted the various statements that were made in the news show. Subsequently he was invited to appear on NewsChannel 8's show called News Talk, with Bruce DePuyt. A guy from Exodus International was also invited, he participated over the phone. Exodus is an organization that promotes the idea that homosexual people can and should learn to be heterosexual. The ten-minute segment aired on Wednesday, May 7th. Channels 7 and 8 are owned by the same company. For some reason, you watch them on Comcast channels 27 and 28, I don't know why you'd want to be called "Channel X" but people watch you on channel Y.

DePuyt introduced the segment by nothing that earlier in the week the American Psychiatric Association had canceled a planned panel at their convention in Washington, D.C., that would have discussed issues surrounding sexual orientation (discussed on this blog HERE). Here is the transcript of the interview from there:
Bruce DePuyt (BD): Organizers say they pulled the plug when one of their participants backed out. Others say it was pressure from gay activists. In a moment, we’ll talk about whether gays and lesbians are born with same sex attractions and whether someone can be, quote, cured of homosexuality.

But first, our Greta Kreuz. [The earlier news report that had been aired on News Channel 8’s sister station, WJLA, can be seen HERE.]

Bruce DePuyt (BD): Joining us now live in the studio is David Fishback of the Metro DC Chapter of PFLAG -- Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, Good to see you again. With us by phone is Randy Thomas of Exodus International. Thank you for your time today.

Randy Thomas (RT): Thank you.

BD: Your reaction, Mr. Thomas, to the cancellation of the conference.

RT: Well, you know, the APA’s decision conveys that they would rather shut us up than to reach out. Any time you allow one party to dictate the terms of dialogue, you abandon equality. Where does this decision leave people of faith? It leaves us out in the cold. We do have a valid testimony , we do have valid viewpoints that should be considered.

BD: Mr. Fishback, do you agree that , in general, you know, that people will have differences? But at least at a conference, at least people are talking. Maybe past each other, but they are talking. Do you regret that the conference was cancelled?

David Fishback (DF): Well, the problem, I think, is in terms of who the representative of the ex-gay group was. Professor Throckmorton has taken many positions over the years that have been absolutely at odds with the positions of every single mainstream American medical and mental health association including that of the American Medical Association, which has concluded that these conversion therapies are dangerous and should not be engaged in. So when you’re talking about….

BD: But what does he advocate?

DF: I know a number of years ago, when I was looking at this very closely for the Montgomery County Public Schools, his view was that, well, as long as somebody has an explanation as to why they are gay – frankly, whether it’s correct or not – that gives them some comfort that there is somebody to blame. Well, that approach is fundamentally destructive of families The medical community, the scientific community has concluded that sexual orientation is not a choice, Simply because the science has not been able to pin down the precise etiology of what causes sexual orientation does not mean that the scientific community is incorrect when they say that, one, it’s not a choice, and, two, it’s not something that’s caused, as the American Academy of Pediatrics has said, it’s not something caused by abnormal parenting or abusive relationships. And that’s the key thing here.

I suspect, but I don’t know, what the APA may have been concerned about was whether Dr. Throckmorton now accepts the science and his viewpoint is, “Well , that if people have theological viewpoints, they have to find ways to live happy lives being celibate,” that would be a legitimate discussion. But if the question is, well, can people really change, all the scientific evidence is that people can’t and it is cruel to tell people they can.

BD: Mr. Thomas, are you at all sympathetic to the view that much of the rhetoric we hear. Now you’re telling an entire class of people that they are essentially invalid?..

RT: Well, what I’m here to say is that 16 years ago I decided not to identify as a gay man and to seek change and I was met with answers that I was [unintelligible] to my life. And Exodus has had a 70% growth rate in five years The demand for our viewpoint is out there and people are wanting something other than the politically correct doctrine that most of these organizations are espousing. Because the truth is that change happens incrementally. For some people it doesn’t happen. For other people it does. For me, it has. And so the APA to completely ignore that reality that there is incremental change for people of faith is to ignore the reality that this issue is a lot broader, a lot more complicated than what the activists are presenting.

BD: Mr. Thomas, let me ask you this: And let’s see if we can get both of you to find any middle ground at all. Is it possible, Mr. Thomas, that some people with same sex attractions would like not to have it and so that this therapy is the way to go and living a heterosexual life is the preferred way, but that some gays and lesbians are very happy as they are and there shouldn’t be a suggestion that all gays need curing

RT: Well, we never suggested that all gays need to be cured. That’s not one of our talking points. That’s our opponent’s talking point. We respect the right to self-determination and that is what the APA is supposed to be about: That people can look at arguments from both sides, they can look at the testimonies of people who identify as gay and have long term relationships and they can look at my testimony and the testimony of thousands of others like me . And they can make the decision for themselves. I would completely agree that no one should feel shame or condemnation for their same sex attraction. I speak out against that as much as I do about how change is possible. That’s my way of grace. I do not agree that there is only one option for people with same sex attractions.

BD: Mr. Fishback, do you think that gays need to be more tolerant of folks who’ve adopted the path of Mr. Thomas and others.

DF: I think people should always be sympathetic to people who hold strong theological viewpoints that impact how they would like to live their lives. But what Mr. Thomas ignores is the fact that the American Medical Association, not some interest group, the American Medical Association has explicitly condemned conversion therapies that are based on the proposition that people should or ought to change their sexual orientation. Why….

RT: And they are yet another professional organization that has been taken over by gay activists.

DF: So the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological Association -- basically, what Mr. Thomas is saying is that all the respected medical groups in this country have been taken over by some kind of cabal without any basis in science, without any basis in fact. And that the only people who are right are the people with a particular theological agenda. I may wish to be……

RT: That’s not the truth. The APA is ignoring people like myself and they need to quit it.

DF: I may wish to be six feet tall, but nothing I can do can make me six feet tall.

BD: David Fishback, Randy Thomas, thank you very much for your time. Unfortunately, we will have to leave the debate there for now We thank both of you for coming in.

I've talked about this before, but the point is an important one. Thomas says "We respect the right to self-determination," and that sounds wonderful -- but there is no right to self-determination for some things. You don't pick your race, your facial features, your birthday, your eye-color, your sexual orientation, your parents. The idea that you have some kind of right to self-determine your biological characteristics is just crazy. But the sentence appears to give no grounds for argument. Everybody respects the right to self-determination for things that we can self-determine -- education, profession, choice of friends, things that we really do have a choice in, this is what we Americans call "freedom." But self-determination does not apply to sexual orientation and that is the whole point. If there was self-determination of sexual orientation, then there would not be any reason to talk about this, the scientists would agree with the religious guys and that would be that. But the fact is, the argument simply doesn't apply, and the statement is nonsense. And groups like Exodus International believe their nonsense should be considered as an equal counterweight to the considered consensus of physicians, researchers, and scientists.

May 12, 2008 1:32 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

Hey, Anon-deluxe,

If you're going to target me with your comments, please have the etiquette to do so directly.

The fact is, and the APA knows this, that psychiatrists and psychologists have been trying for over a hundred years now to tie sexual behaviors of all types to sexual abuse and "abnormal parenting." In some cases they have been successful; in others, such as sexual orientation and gender identity, utter failures.

No one here, and certainly not I, would ever say that parenting isn't important or influential. It simply is not influential enough to impact the biological functions that manifest as sexual orientation or gender identity.

So I imagine the ttf community believes that parents should raise their children well and not neglect or abuse them, which will minimize the chances their children will have any kind of psychological damage. We can join with you to oppose child abuse of all kinds, and have a great impact on the well-being of our children.

Let's do it.

One other point -- you do not choose your anatomy, but you can correct it or modify it by choice later on. I have never claimed I didn't have a choice in deciding to transition. I had decided for forty years not to do so before I did. Neither choice, though, had any impact on the reality of my being both intersex and transgender.

I don't care if gay men want to live as straight men, as long as one doesn't lie to me about their orientation. I don't care if gay men choose to be celibate because they believe their faith demands that of them. That's their battle with their faith.

What I do care about is any faith-based ministry lying to people about being able to change their identity and feelings, which clearly cannot be done. Why can't you be satisfied with speaking the truth to these people and helping them within the bounds of reality? Why is that so hard for you?

The Jewish religion generally accepts gender transition, and that includes the orthodox. Some orthodox will say, "No, you shouldn't do it, because the Bible says such and such . . ." OK. I can argue about all that. But, importantly, then they will follow and say, "Well, once you've done it, and we never encouraged you to do it, but since you've done it, ok with us."

May 12, 2008 2:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dana: It will take an exterminator to get the bug out of Anonymous's butt. Trying to reason with him, using logic and facts, referencing acknowledged experts in various fields of human sexuality study...none of that works with this deaf person. He/She simply has made up his/her mind that you are wrong and he/she is absolutely, unequivocally RIGHT and has God on his/her side. I suspect your intelligent insights and information would have much more effect on a barn door than it has on him/her.

May 12, 2008 6:48 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

I understand it's difficult, but I have been able to reach out and touch some previously recalcitrant individuals, so there's always hope.

This blog is primarily for all those who read it, not for the Anonymi who do battle with teachthefacts.

May 12, 2008 7:19 PM  
Anonymous anon-deluxe said...

"If you're going to target me with your comments, please have the etiquette to do so directly."

Didn't have you mind, Dana.

See a professional about those egocentric delusions.

May 13, 2008 8:17 AM  
Anonymous TTFrist said...

AD said Didn't have you mind, Dana.

See a professional about those egocentric delusions.


AD said that after saying Dana says his problem was because her mother took some drug when he was in her womb. Was that being abusive and she did not know it to be so? Is Dana blaming her mother? Is Dana now finding comfort now that she has someone to blame? Is this tearing Dana’s family apart? Does Dana blame mother or did Dana forgive her mother?

All the readers of this blog can easily tell who needs to see a professional. A remedial grammar class is in order too.

May 13, 2008 11:57 AM  
Blogger Emproph said...

Anonymous said…
"David, David. There you go again spinning the truth.
[...]
You keep saying, Sexual Orientation is not a choice but you never say what kind of choice."

--
Ok, I can appreciate the question per se, but it’s really irritatingly obtuse.

If it’s not a choice, how can one be held accountable for defining variations to that choice?

…as you suggest:

"You keep saying, Sexual Orientation is not a choice but you never say what kind of choice. Initial choice? Choice later on in life? That is like saying, a club foot is not a choice but everybody knows you have a choice to change that later."
--
First off, it’s "not a choice," in the same way that human sexuality is not a choice for humans beings.

Disagree as you may, the sentiment is as basic as that.
--
Your response however, is like saying:

"You keep saying your wallpaper isn’t green, but you never say what kind of green. Chartreuse? Chrome oxide? Olive drab?"
--
To respond to such a statement, with such a question, tells me that you weren’t listening to begin with.

May 13, 2008 3:14 PM  
Blogger Emproph said...

Update: Randy Thomas confirms accuracy of transcript:

"While in DC, at a Pastor’s conference, I did a local debate regarding the APA silencing people holding the “ex-gay” viewpoint from speaking into a symposium they had scheduled and then canceled at the last minute. Someone forwarded the transcript to me. I phoned in to the local CBS affiliate there in town because it was *very* last minute and I couldn’t get there and do all the things I had to do for the conference at the same time. I did not alter the transcript at all but it was sent to me by a third party. After reading it I think it is word for word."

May 21, 2008 4:31 AM  

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